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Thread: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

  1. #121
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    good - I hope their model continues to be successful. However, the "buy large bulk quantities with as minimal shelving costs as possible in a warehouse" model isn't a "fine example" of what all other businesses should do. Costco can afford to do what it does because of how it runs - hire fewer workers per square foot of sales space, minimize the cost of the space, and lock people in with memberships. Costco also hires (uh-oh) better workers than Wal-Mart does. Because they hire fewer, and pay more, they are pickier. A kid coming off the street who either isn't finished with High School or who didn't finish High School and has little social capital backing him in the form of all those Soft Assets that make us better workers is more likely to actually get a job at Wal-Mart than he is at Costco.

    So, if your "role model for the economy" is "keep our poor trapped in poverty through joblessness", then hey, I agree, raising the minimum wage is a fine idea.




    and Costco's isn't? There is no moral difference between the two companies, both are simply putting into place successful but different provision models. With, I think, two notable exceptions - 1. Wal-Mart get's where it does by providing a good/service at a price people want, Costco appears to want to increase it's market share by using government force to tilt the scales in its favor and 2. We currently have at or almost at double-digit unemployment for recent veterans, who often lack easily definable civilian job skill sets (your average restaurant or bank does not need many people who know how to repair machine guns) but who do often come with health issues. Wal-Mart has pledged to hire any unemployed veteran who has served in the wars and who walks through their doors looking for a job. GaThomas (a poster here) is in that boat, and is right now applying through their managerial program. I realize that's a small thing, but I find it worth noting.



    Is Goldman Sachs more moral than Costco because it pays its' employees more?
    It is debatable whether or not increasing minimum wage would negatively effect jobs and it would stimulate the economy so I'd call that a wash.

    You completely ignored the point I was making with how Wal-Mart operates and what the end result of that kind of operation is. Yes it creates a lot of low-wage poverty jobs for the vast majority and funnels all profits to the top, just like conservative economics does. Do you disagree? Do you think this is a good thing?

    If you compare profits between Costco and Wal-Mart you will see the difference lies completely in how much more Costco pays it's workers. Wal-Mart's median wage is like $10 an hour, Costco's is $17. You really think $10 an hour at best is something to look forward to? Is this really what America has become? You want veterans with health problems making 10 bucks an hour or worse? They'll be just another welfare case.

    If Wal-Mart is your model for success then you had better get used to increasing welfare because it is the only way the average American can survive working there.

  2. #122
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Every time someone tosses out that short-sighted and foolish assumption (oh! Profits are Endless! We can do whatever we like to business and they will just cut into magical, wonderful, always-existent Profits!) I want to track them down in RL and force them to read the story of the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg a hundred times in a row.

    Many of our bigger employers run on business models that reduce profit margins in order to lower prices in order to sell more and make back the difference on bulk. The margins are already thin enough that increases in the cost of individual unit of labor require cuts to that total cost.



    BS. "Everyone has bent over backwards to make our economy work"? We have record numbers of people enjoying the Social Safety Hammock - Record numbers of people collecting SNAP, TANF, SSDI, you name it. The people that are paying for all that are the ones with the most.



    Not only class warfare claptrap, but hilariously mathematically incompetent. What is breaking our nations' finances are our entitlements.
    This is standard nonsense the greedy trot out when their rigged game is explored. You think all profit belongs to the rich and if anyone gets a little more it will be the end of the economy and socialism will take over. I've seen this bs my whole life, its petty bully tactics to convince people they'd better take that small paycheck and shutup.

    Then you complain about welfare, most welfare recipients work ya know.

    You can't have it both ways... you can't pay poverty wages then complain about those same people drawing welfare because their job doesn't pay enough.

    Yes you're right, entitlements are breaking the country. Corporate welfare, tax cuts for the rich, an effective tax rate of < 15% for billionaires, effective taxes of 25% or more on the working poor. We really need to clamp down on the freeloaders who milk the real workers for all they're worth.

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Well, the federal government doesn't price fix much, though they do have a very large effect on heath care prices because they spend so much on it...at prices they set. But that's not the same thing as telling everyone...all buyers and all sellers...that they are not allowed to go above or below some level that the government dreams up. But, yeah...government price fixing really is a bad thing.
    You've yet again changed your definition of price fixing and now you're talking about something completely different, again...

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Actually the CBO report said that the job impact would fall in a range between 0 and 1 million.

    The problem is that economic theory shows a higher minimum wage would lead to lower employment. The reality when actually studying the impact has been a very mixed bag with some cases showing job gains an most studies showing a negligible impact.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Cool...I'm glad to see you finally post some links instead of just stating your opinion, but that's only part of debating. Now, you have to put this mass of information into context. Quote specific portions of this data and show how it supports your position.

    Look...if we were talking about new taxes resulting from Obamacare, I could say that there are X number of new taxes put into effect by that law and to support my argument, post a link to the thousands of pages of text in the law. But that would be meaningless. To prove my point, I would need to quote specific portions of the law that applies to my argument.

    You need to do the same here. These links you've posted are meaningless.
    LoL, are you coaching me on how to debate? Thanks.

    You're basically copying DA60's style of "debate" by trying to test me with endless demands that I "do this" or "show this" to your satisfaction. This is a very old and shallow technique by people who don't have an actual argument and just want to taunt from the sidelines.

    If you would like to make an actual argument instead of just complaining, go ahead. What's funny is that what I posted was for a demand from DA60 because he kept demanding links to research. Now you chime in and demand quotes and criticize it as not enough, lmao. Where is your argument? Where is your research? Where is your "proof" of anything?

  6. #126
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    You've yet again changed your definition of price fixing and now you're talking about something completely different, again...
    I haven't changed any definition.
    TANSTAAFL

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  7. #127
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Why do you say that service jobs are "unskilled"? I once held down a service job...servicing fire safety equipment. Believe me, in order to do my job effectively, I had to have a certain amount of knowledge about plumbing, pressure, mechanics, interpreting and applying federal, state and local laws. I had to be able to read diagrams and blueprints. I had to be able to operate machinery...some of it computer controlled, some of it manually operated. Plus, I had to understand and use customer service concepts and practices. I was quite "skilled" in that job and I earned much more than minimum wage doing it. When I applied for the work, I beat out 5 other people applying for the same job.

    That was the "free market" at work that gave me that job.
    Did you go to college for that job? No, you learned on the job how to do it, that is unskilled labor.

    Most service jobs are unskilled and pay little, that is the overall point and big picture that is important.

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    LoL, are you coaching me on how to debate?
    Well, yes...I am.

    Thanks.
    You are welcome.

    You're basically copying DA60's style of "debate" by trying to test me with endless demands that I "do this" or "show this" to your satisfaction. This is a very old and shallow technique by people who don't have an actual argument and just want to taunt from the sidelines.
    When all you do is state your opinion...and when others dispute your opinion and present facts that show your opinion is in error...then it is incumbent upon you to present facts that support your opinion. You haven't done so. I'm not taunting you. I'm only asking you to support your opinions.

    If you would like to make an actual argument instead of just complaining, go ahead. What's funny is that what I posted was for a demand from DA60 because he kept demanding links to research. Now you chime in and demand quotes and criticize it as not enough, lmao. Where is your argument? Where is your research? Where is your "proof" of anything?
    Whining doesn't become you.

    I've demanded nothing from you...except that you back up your opinions.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Did you go to college for that job? No, you learned on the job how to do it, that is unskilled labor.
    Thank you for this little gem.

  10. #130
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Did you go to college for that job? No, you learned on the job how to do it, that is unskilled labor.

    Most service jobs are unskilled and pay little, that is the overall point and big picture that is important.
    unskilled labor
    noun
    1.
    work that requires practically no training or experience for its adequate or competent performance.

    Unskilled-labor | Define Unskilled-labor at Dictionary.com
    Definition of 'Unskilled Labor'

    A segment of the work force associated with a low skill level or a limited economic value for the work performed (human capital). Unskilled labor is generally characterized by low education levels and small wages. Work that requires no specific education or experience is often available to workers who fall into the unskilled labor force.

    Investopedia explains 'Unskilled Labor'

    Unskilled labor provides a significant part of the overall labor market, performing daily production tasks that do not depend on technical abilities or skills. Menial or repetitive tasks are typical unskilled labor positions. Jobs that can be fully learned in less than 30 days often fall into the unskilled labor category.

    Unskilled Labor Definition | Investopedia
    I think it would help if you didn't make up your own definitions of the terms you use.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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