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Thread: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

  1. #111
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Please post the source of this graphic, along with their definition of "Services".

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    They are a role model for competitors and a fine example of what would put the U.S. back on track to a winning economy. Their workers buy homes and spend additional money in the local economy strengthening it.
    good - I hope their model continues to be successful. However, the "buy large bulk quantities with as minimal shelving costs as possible in a warehouse" model isn't a "fine example" of what all other businesses should do. Costco can afford to do what it does because of how it runs - hire fewer workers per square foot of sales space, minimize the cost of the space, and lock people in with memberships. Costco also hires (uh-oh) better workers than Wal-Mart does. Because they hire fewer, and pay more, they are pickier. A kid coming off the street who either isn't finished with High School or who didn't finish High School and has little social capital backing him in the form of all those Soft Assets that make us better workers is more likely to actually get a job at Wal-Mart than he is at Costco.

    So, if your "role model for the economy" is "keep our poor trapped in poverty through joblessness", then hey, I agree, raising the minimum wage is a fine idea.


    Wal-Mart's exploitation every where it goes is the perfect example of conservative economics at work.
    and Costco's isn't? There is no moral difference between the two companies, both are simply putting into place successful but different provision models. With, I think, two notable exceptions - 1. Wal-Mart get's where it does by providing a good/service at a price people want, Costco appears to want to increase it's market share by using government force to tilt the scales in its favor and 2. We currently have at or almost at double-digit unemployment for recent veterans, who often lack easily definable civilian job skill sets (your average restaurant or bank does not need many people who know how to repair machine guns) but who do often come with health issues. Wal-Mart has pledged to hire any unemployed veteran who has served in the wars and who walks through their doors looking for a job. GaThomas (a poster here) is in that boat, and is right now applying through their managerial program. I realize that's a small thing, but I find it worth noting.



    Is Goldman Sachs more moral than Costco because it pays its' employees more?

  3. #113
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Or cut into profits, but that would be stealing, right?
    Every time someone tosses out that short-sighted and foolish assumption (oh! Profits are Endless! We can do whatever we like to business and they will just cut into magical, wonderful, always-existent Profits!) I want to track them down in RL and force them to read the story of the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg a hundred times in a row.

    Many of our bigger employers run on business models that reduce profit margins in order to lower prices in order to sell more and make back the difference on bulk. The margins are already thin enough that increases in the cost of individual unit of labor require cuts to that total cost.

    Everyone has bent over backwards to make our economy work except for those with the most.
    BS. "Everyone has bent over backwards to make our economy work"? We have record numbers of people enjoying the Social Safety Hammock - Record numbers of people collecting SNAP, TANF, SSDI, you name it. The people that are paying for all that are the ones with the most.

    They've decided they always need more no matter what and its breaking the country.
    Not only class warfare claptrap, but hilariously mathematically incompetent. What is breaking our nations' finances are our entitlements.

  4. #114
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    You've completely missed the ball here. By your definition of price fixing, that would mean the government is price fixing damn near everything. Not only that but you double down and again say it ALWAYS has undesirable consequences when you're referring to basically everything... I'm really going to have to ignore you now as you've just completely gone off the rails.
    Well, the federal government doesn't price fix much, though they do have a very large effect on heath care prices because they spend so much on it...at prices they set. But that's not the same thing as telling everyone...all buyers and all sellers...that they are not allowed to go above or below some level that the government dreams up. But, yeah...government price fixing really is a bad thing.
    TANSTAAFL

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Cool...I'm glad to see you finally post some links instead of just stating your opinion, but that's only part of debating. Now, you have to put this mass of information into context. Quote specific portions of this data and show how it supports your position.

    Look...if we were talking about new taxes resulting from Obamacare, I could say that there are X number of new taxes put into effect by that law and to support my argument, post a link to the thousands of pages of text in the law. But that would be meaningless. To prove my point, I would need to quote specific portions of the law that applies to my argument.

    You need to do the same here. These links you've posted are meaningless.
    TANSTAAFL

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  6. #116
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    We're moving more and more towards a service oriented economy. Only a small fraction of unskilled people can upgrade their skills and get a better job. What about the other 90% that are needed to fill the standard unskilled service jobs? What future do they have in America?

    So this is my point, how is the "free market" going to give these people a future? The answer is, its not.
    Why do you say that service jobs are "unskilled"? I once held down a service job...servicing fire safety equipment. Believe me, in order to do my job effectively, I had to have a certain amount of knowledge about plumbing, pressure, mechanics, interpreting and applying federal, state and local laws. I had to be able to read diagrams and blueprints. I had to be able to operate machinery...some of it computer controlled, some of it manually operated. Plus, I had to understand and use customer service concepts and practices. I was quite "skilled" in that job and I earned much more than minimum wage doing it. When I applied for the work, I beat out 5 other people applying for the same job.

    That was the "free market" at work that gave me that job.
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    There you go again...assuming.

    I make a statement - and you start reading between the lines and filling in what you want...instead of just taking the actual words I use and nothing else.

    In other words, you are - imo - in essence, putting words in my mouth...and I will not debate with people who do that.

    Either debate the EXACT words I use and NONE other or I cannot be bothered.


    I am not wasting any further time with you on this.

    I have said what I think are some of the solutions for American workers as opposed to forcing the minimum wage up by 39%.

    You don't agree...so be it.


    We are done here for now.
    I'm taking what you say and putting it into context. If you say "welfare is available so Americans will be fine", that's pretty much an endorsement of just having people on welfare with no other choice since you're not arguing the other points.

    You haven't made a single argument in this thread. All you've done is complain about silly things like semantics or my perceived tone.

  8. #118
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Call it what you like...I like exactitude.

    I don't always follow it, but I try.

    If you are going to make matter-of-fact statements without any concern for their accuracy, please don't go whining when someone points it out to you.

    Spend a few more seconds to make the statement accurate and no one will call you on it.

    A simple 'I believe' instead of 'it is' is a good place to start.

    And if you had not been - imo - rather rude to people (who seemed to have been civil to you initially); I would not have bothered. But you were (imo), so I did.


    Good day.
    You have no argument so you're clinging to semantics, very weak.

  9. #119
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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Barely be called more? What does that mean? Are they more or not? The starting wage at both Walmart and Target is more than minimum wage.
    I said that the market is not going to give service workers a raise and you asked how is it that people make more than minimum wage, so I told you. The point is it is barely above minimum wage and is not much to look forward to. If you think that is proof of the market taking care of the workers I'd say you are wrong.

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    Re: CBO Says Minimum-Wage Rise May Ease Poverty, Cost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Please post the source of this graphic, along with their definition of "Services".
    I'm not going to research common knowledge for you. Type into google "U.S. employment by sector" and take a look around. Take a look at what kind of jobs make up the service sector. Look at how much those jobs typically pay.

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