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Thread: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial[W:336]

  1. #131
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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Your are assuming ....you simply don't know. Ever been in a situation like Dunn's?

    It's encouraged and recommended that you *remove yourself from the *immediate danger area* of the scene of the *said* threat. Leaving the premises is not egregious, and easily able to be articulated plus no law was broken
    Get serious. No law was broken?
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Other then of course shooting at people
    But he was able to articulate why he shot into a car full of people and why he drove far far far away and did not report his actions....so he is innocent, damn it!

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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    I haven't been following this case. All I know is there was a guy who had an argument with some teens, a threat was made, he started firing and kept firing while they were driving away.

    And now the media is saying "this will keep happening while we have Stand Your Ground laws".

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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Your are assuming ....you simply don't know. Ever been in a situation like Dunn's?
    Yes, everyday.
    Trump Attacked A Syrian Airfield. Trump will be a one-term president.

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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    Leaving the scene....not a big deal if you need to get to safety.

    When you are safe, call 911 or drive to the nearest police station or officer.

    Why would someone not take this reasonable action?
    If they're drunk and want the alcohol to leave the system.
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  6. #136
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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Self defense is an affirmative defense and the burden of proof is on the defense to show clear and convincing evidence that the defendant's actions were reasonable. It is not enough to just claim that the situation was stressful or unfamiliar, he has to demonstrate that his use of deadly force was reasonable. "Reasonable" is not so broad a term as to be just what the defendant believes to be reasonable, but more narrow than that. And to the benefit of the defense the burden of proof is not even the same as the prosecution must demonstrate (beyond a reasonable doubt). All the defense needs to do is demonstrate clear and convincing evidence. In the Dunn case there was none of that.
    Wrong.

    I know what an affirmative defense is and I provided the information for all to read.
    All that is required in such a case is a showing, or as stated, a production of evidence to generate the Jury instruction.
    Without such, the Jury instruction is not generated. Capisce?

    That evidence can be "testimonial or physical", and "that evidence can be adduced through through cross examination of Government witnesses or produced after the close of the Government’s case in chief".
    In this case it was adduced through his testimony.
    Dunn taking the stand and stating he was in fear of his life and reacting to the perceived threat was sufficient.
    How do we know it was sufficient and the burden met to generate the self defense Jury instruction? Because the instruction was generated. Capisce?



    So again, since you stated something so absurd to what already has been shown to be required.
    Try reading it this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES

    Code:
    UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES
    
    David Beneman
    Maine CJA Resource Counsel
    Levenson, Vickerson & Beneman
    P.O. Box 465
    Portland, ME 04112
    ...
    
    I. Legal Groundwork For Affirmative Defenses
    
    A. What is an Affirmative Defense?
    
    An affirmative defense is one which provides a defense without negating an essential
    element of the crime charge. To establish an affirmative defense the defendant must place
    before the jury sufficient proof to generate a jury instruction on the particular defense theory
    sought. Normally, an affirmative defense is expressly designated as affirmative by statute,
    or is a defense involving an excuse or justification peculiarly within the knowledge of the
    accused.
    
    B.  How is an Affirmative Defense different from a “Regular” Defense?
    
    An affirmative defense is one which requires the actual production of evidence, be
    it testimonial or physical. The evidence can be adduced through cross examination of
    Government witnesses or produced after the close of the Government’s case in chief.
    Affirmative defenses do not directly attack an element of the crime but provide either
    justification for the conduct or some other legally recognized approach to undermining the
    charge. A defendant must generate an affirmative defense instruction.
    
    
    C. Types of Defenses
    
    There are two categories of defense.
    1. I did not do it defenses, and
    2. I did it but defenses.
    Affirmative defenses are available in both categories.
    
    
    [...]
    
    
    D. Burdens
    The term “affirmative defense” seems inextricably tied to arguments about burden shifting.
    Three different burdens exist; 
    
    burden of proof (always on the government), burden of production (normally on the defense), and burden of persuasion (normally back on the government).
    The burden of proof to prove the essential elements of the crime charged BRD starts with and ALWAYS stays with the Government. The burden of production to generate an affirmative defense is on the defense. This is constitutional because the defense is not negating an essential element of the crime charged. The standard, meaning the quantum of evidence needed, varies with the particular affirmative defense. Generally it is either by a preponderance, or by clear and convincing. Once the defense has met this burden of producing an affirmative defense, the Government has the additional burden of persuading the jury not just as to each element of the crime BRD, but also to persuade the jury to reject the affirmative defense BRD as well.
    I. Burden of Proof Presenting an affirmative defense offers no relief to the government in what they must prove. Patterson v. New York, 432 U.S. 197 (1977). Rather, if the defense generates an affirmative defense, the government must then disprove the defense generally beyond a reasonable doubt. Mullaney, 421 U.S. at 704; U.S. v. Jackson, 569 F.2d 1003, 1008 n.12 (7th Cir. 1978)(emphasis added).
    Source
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    I know what an affirmative defense is and I provided the information for all to read.
    All that is required in such a case is a showing, or as stated, a production of evidence to generate the Jury instruction.
    Without such, the Jury instruction is not generated. Capisce?

    That evidence can be "testimonial or physical", and "that evidence can be adduced through through cross examination of Government witnesses or produced after the close of the Government’s case in chief".
    In this case it was adduced through his testimony.
    Dunn taking the stand and stating he was in fear of his life and reacting to the perceived threat was sufficient.
    How do we know it was sufficient and the burden met to generate the self defense Jury instruction? Because the instruction was generated. Capisce?


    Yeah, what I said. Dunn takes the stand and claims that he saw what he believed was a shotgun and that was his theory of self defense (affirmative defense) to the homicide for which he was charged with murder.

    And since the affirmative defense puts the burden of proof on Dunn (and that will be considered by the jury as instructed by the judge), I guess his testimony did not carry the burden of proof with the trier of fact aka: the jury.

    What part of the fact that Dunn's testimony was not sufficient to convince the jury do you not get?

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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Yeah, what I said. Dunn takes the stand and claims that he saw what he believed was a shotgun and that was his theory of self defense (affirmative defense) to the homicide for which he was charged with murder.

    And since the affirmative defense puts the burden of proof on Dunn (and that will be considered by the jury as instructed by the judge), I guess his testimony did not carry the burden of proof with the trier of fact aka: the jury.

    What part of the fact that Dunn's testimony was not sufficient to convince the jury do you not get?
    No. It isn't what you said.
    And you even have the burden confused, when I provided that information also.
    You are just wrong all over.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    No. It isn't what you said.
    And you even have the burden confused, when I provided that information also.
    You are just wrong all over.

    Really I am wrong? So then if you are right and I am wrong, why was Dunn convicted of 3 counts of attempted murder?

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    Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Really I am wrong? So then if you are right and I am wrong, why was Dunn convicted of 3 counts of attempted murder?
    D'oh!

    Because what we are discussing has nothing to do with those charges.

    The burden was on Dunn to make a showing to generate the instruction. That is all.


    As for the why's of those three convictions?


    This would be why.
    “Each count has to, by law, be considered separately,” Healey said, adding that he realized, “It’s not easy to compartmentalize these things.”

    Considered separately, none of the other three had provoked his shooting, which, without question, endangered them.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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