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Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

winston53660 said:
Just likwe a conservative make idle threats.
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Are you threatened by reality? There was no idle threat in the post, just a statement of high probability. If a constitutional amendment were brought before the states now homosexual marriage would lose it's court based foothold.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
Oh, I see, you were referring to state constitutional amendments and not Federal amendments. Still irrelevant. Nevada and Wisconsin are currently in the process of dealing with repealing their amendments, and of course if higher courts determine that those state amendments are unconstitutional then, well, that's that.
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No, I believe he was talking about amendment to the federal constitution. That is ratified by the states, not a popular vote. The higher courts would have no option in the face of a constitutional amendment.

Cardinal said:
So far, nothing you or Clownboy has said successfully deals with the direction of change right now. The states and the courts combined are successively heading towards nationwide recognition.
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No again. The states aren't moving that way, the courts may be.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

clownboy said:
Are you threatened by reality? There was no idle threat in the post, just a statement of high probability. If a constitutional amendment were brought before the states now homosexual marriage would lose it's court based foothold.
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A majority of voters don't support allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally, yet at the same time a majority also opposes a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage.

According to a Fox News poll released Wednesday, 37 percent of voters believe gays and lesbians should be allowed to get married legally. While that’s unchanged from 2010, when the question was most recently asked, it’s nearly double the 20 percent who felt that way in March 2004, the first time it was asked.

Click for the full poll results.

On the other hand, the poll finds 25 percent think there should be no legal recognition given to gay and lesbian relationships, down from 28 percent in 2010 and a high of 40 percent in 2004.

The remaining one third (33 percent) think same-sex couples should be allowed a legal partnership similar to but not called marriage. While that number has bounced around a bit over the years, 33 percent also favored this middle-ground position in 2004.

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney favors a constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between a man and a woman.

Thirty-eight percent of American voters agree with him, while 53 percent oppose such an amendment.

Fox News poll: Majority opposes gay marriage, doesn't want constitutional amendment | Fox News
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Something winston I believe will change as the courts increasingly frustrate the will of the people.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

clownboy said:
No, I believe he was talking about amendment to the federal constitution. That is ratified by the states, not a popular vote. The higher courts would have no option in the face of a constitutional amendment.
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2/3 majority in senate and House, and you don't have the numbers there. And even if it were to go the direction of a constitution convention (which has never happened), you still don't have the numbers. A Federal constitutional amendment is fantasy.

clownboy said:
No again. The states aren't moving that way, the courts may be.
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Well, not all once, obviously, but one by one they are heading in that direction. And I have no problems with the courts cleaning up the rest.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
Oh, I see, you were referring to state constitutional amendments and not Federal amendments. Still irrelevant. Nevada and Wisconsin are currently in the process of dealing with repealing their amendments, and of course if higher courts determine that those state amendments are unconstitutional then, well, that's that.

So far, nothing you or Clownboy has said successfully deals with the direction of change right now. The states and the courts combined are successively heading towards nationwide recognition.
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No, I am talking FEDERAL CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS one that defines marriage. There are enough states now to ratify an amendment doing exactly what you don't want it to do
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Conservative said:
No, I am talking FEDERAL CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS one that defines marriage. There are enough states now to ratify an amendment doing exactly what you don't want it to do
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See the post above yours.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
See the post above yours.
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Also I think it would be risky to hedge one's bet on 3/4s of the States going one's way
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

winston53660 said:
Also I think it would be risky to hedge one's bet on 3/4s of the States going one's way
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Going by Conservative's own link to the list of states that approve of ssm, you have

*15 states saying "We don't like teh gayz."
*12 states saying, "we don't like teh gayz, but we like other things a lot less."
*8 states saying, "I'm not inviting gays to my birthday party, but really I can't be arsed to care."

Conservative also conveniently ignored the part of his own site that says "In the last eight years, every state has increased in its support for marriage..." which sort of undermines the idea of these as states that will eternally hold the fort against gay marriage.
 
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re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
2/3 majority in senate and House, and you don't have the numbers there. And even if it were to go the direction of a constitution convention (which has never happened), you still don't have the numbers. A Federal constitutional amendment is fantasy.
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Every state but Hawaii has called for an Article V convention in the last 100 years. The threshold for number of states applying has been nearly reached several times. Congress steps in and does it's job at that point.

At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention.[3

Convention to propose amendments to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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It's a failure on our part, as the People, to maintain our Constitution rather than allow the courts to do it extra-constitutionally.


Cardinal said:
Well, not all once, obviously, but one by one they are heading in that direction. And I have no problems with the courts cleaning up the rest.
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Not their mess to "clean up". That's part of the problem here.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

clownboy said:
Every state but Hawaii has called for an Article V convention in the last 100 years. The threshold for number of states applying has been nearly reached several times. Congress steps in and does it's job at that point.
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According to Conservative's own link, support for this has been steadily eroding. It's something that might have happened ten years ago, but that boat has sailed.


clownboy said:
It's a failure on our part, as the People, to maintain our Constitution rather than allow the courts to do it extra-constitutionally.




Not their mess to "clean up". That's part of the problem here.
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The notion that courts are somehow an illegitimate part of the process is entirely imagined.
 
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re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
According to Conservative's own link, support for this has been steadily eroding.
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And yet, whenever there's a vote, the actual vote totals show a different story.

Cardinal said:
The notion that courts are somehow an illegitimate part of the process is entirely imagined.
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The amendment process? They ARE an illegitimate part of that process. Amending the constitution by judicial fiat, that IS an illegitimate part of the process.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

clownboy said:
And yet, whenever there's a vote, the actual vote totals show a different story.
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This statement only holds water under two assumptions (both false):
1)that it's true. It's not. I've already listed the states that have voted to recognize ssm.
2)that support for ssm is static. It's not. It's on the rise in every state. All of them, not just the blue ones.



clownboy said:
The amendment process? They ARE an illegitimate part of that process. Amending the constitution by judicial fiat, that IS an illegitimate part of the process.
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Demonstrably untrue, and fruitless to argue.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
This statement only holds water under two assumptions (both false):
1)that it's true. It's not. I've already listed the states that have voted to recognize ssm.
2)that support for ssm is static. It's not. It's on the rise in every state. All of them, not just the blue ones.
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Those states were already supporters of gay marriage and in fact so-called blue states have attempted to vote against homosexual marriage only to have the courts negate the will of the People. As to that last, I don't think you can show that with any reliability.

Cardinal said:
Demonstrably untrue, and fruitless to argue.
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What? Where in the Constitution does it grant the court ANY power in the amendment process? But it's interesting to see you try to defend the court amending the constitution by decision.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
See the post above yours.
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I am sorry but I thought I was dealing with someone who understood how the Constitution was ratified. It is ratified by the states
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Conservative said:
I am sorry but I thought I was dealing with someone who understood how the Constitution was ratified. It is ratified by the states
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Three quarters of them, as Winton already pointed out, which is 38. In your own link your results show 35 states with ssm support below 50%, 8 of which is in the 46-49% range, which translates into "Can't be be bothered to care enough to actually go through with this." And since opinions on ssm are shifting towards greater acceptance constantly, your site which dates back to April is already certainly obsolete.

No matter how you interpret the results, you just don't have the numbers.

But tell you what, if I'm wrong (and I'm not), I'll provide the margaritas.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
Three quarters of them, as Winton already pointed out, which is 38. In your own link your results show 35 states with ssm support below 50%, 8 of which is in the 46-49% range, which translates into "Can't be be bothered to care enough to actually go through with this." And since opinions on ssm are shifting towards greater acceptance constantly, your site which dates back to April is already certainly obsolete.

No matter how you interpret the results, you just don't have the numbers.

But tell you what, if I'm wrong (and I'm not), I'll provide the margaritas.
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So let's see, 35 PLUS 8 equal 43%. Don't poke the bear, leave marriage alone or you aren't going to like the outcome
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Conservative said:
So let's see, 35 PLUS 8 equal 43%. Don't poke the bear, leave marriage alone or you aren't going to like the outcome
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Whuh? I said 35 minus 8. And even if you don't accept my interpretation of those 8 states, you still only have 35, which is 3 shy of the result you're hoping for.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

CaptainCourtesy said:
But, it has nothing to do with weakness. Making that accusation is denigrating those who are mentally ill.
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I'm not so sure. Weakness in the sense that we all have our weaknesses on any number of things concerning ourselves, whether we smoke when we know we really shouldn't, what we eat and how much, the list goes on ad infinitum. Having a weakness or to put it more mildly, a lack of strength with regard to emotions and understanding the world around us, and dealing with these feelings with healthy outlets isn't a mental disorder, IMO. I think that mostly that is a product of conditioning, whether poor parenting plays a role, or poor peer relationships, I'm not entirely sure, but simply being a homosexual is not what I would consider a good enough reason to commit the ultimate life ending action. There has to be much more to it than that, and that's what I was getting at, mostly.

Tim-
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Cardinal said:
Whuh? I said 35 minus 8. And even if you don't accept my interpretation of those 8 states, you still only have 35, which is 3 shy of the result you're hoping for.
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What is going to be interesting is how people vote vs what they say to pollsters. History says there is a big difference.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Conservative said:
What is going to be interesting is how people vote vs what they say to pollsters. History says there is a big difference.
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History shows more people actively supporting gay rights.
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Seriously?

Some chick I've never heard of, who has had roles in one, maybe two, significant movies, comes out of the closet and this is somehow news?

Good Lord, who really cares?
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

winston53660 said:
History shows more people actively supporting gay rights.
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What people do in a voting booth is different than what they tell a pollster. N.C. polls showed a very close vote on a Constitutional Amendment. When the votes were counted it wasn't close as all and the amendment overwhelmingly passed
 
re: Actress Ellen Page: "I am gay"[W:1222]

Conservative said:
What people do in a voting booth is different than what they tell a pollster. N.C. polls showed a very close vote on a Constitutional Amendment. When the votes were counted it wasn't close as all and the amendment overwhelmingly passed
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I did not say anything about polls. I said actively supporting. Case in point

 
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