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Thread: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Marriage also use to be about property. Man getting married to a woman who was nothing more than property. He even paid for for in the form of a dowery.
    It was not payment for the woman, it was payment for the loss of her labor from the family. And paying for a bride is not dowry, that's bride price.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It was not payment for the woman, it was payment for the loss of her labor from the family.
    So they say. In the end she was a slave. Sold to the highest status bidder the father could achieve.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So they say. In the end she was a slave. Sold to the highest status bidder the father could achieve.

    Who wasn't a slave in ancient times, except the king. In the end? In the beginning, she and everyone else in the family were slaves. They were all born into tyranny and died in it. Men and children were sold just the same. That a family be compensated for a loss of labor was hardly atrocity given context.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Who wasn't a slave in ancient times, except the king. In the end? In the beginning, she and everyone else in the family were slaves. They were all born into tyranny and died in it. Men and children were sold just the same. That a family be compensated for a loss of labor was hardly atrocity given context.
    I think you're taking the word "slave" to the extremes here. If you want to go that route then its not much further to consider US slaves also. After all, neither you nor I alone could stop Congress or the President from putting us in Gitmo.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I think you're taking the word "slave" to the extremes here. If you want to go that route then its not much further to consider US slaves also. After all, neither you nor I alone could stop Congress or the President from putting us in Gitmo.
    Let's not totally drop context. By slave I meant always lacking human rights and often, quite literally, a slave. Men, women, children... much of society. Let's not confound the state of civilization with compensation for labor lost.

    neither you nor I alone could stop Congress or the President from putting us in Gitmo.
    The president and congress are not like a divine right king.

    Of course we could. There are specific requirements that must be met for incarceration at Gitmo. Those requirements are enforced. Without a change in the law, there is no way the president or congress could put me in Gitmo. If I became a terrorist and conducted operations in foreign countries against the US, then Gitmo would be too good for me.

    So, as it stands, the president and congress CANNOT put me in Gitmo. I, myself, could stop it merely by contacting a military attorney and having the requirements enforced. Perhaps, under your fantasy law, these things can be done randomly - but we all know that's not reality.

    'Harold and Kumar Escape from Gitmo' was not a documentary.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 02-14-14 at 06:30 AM.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Meh, it's stayed...which was entirely predictable based on SCOTUS's recent stance on this. They'll deal with the question in due time and at least get some semblance of a solid oath forward at that point. The opinions of the rest of these lower court judges are largely irrelevant at this point.

    When it actually gets to the SCOTUS I'll start paying attention and see if they go more towards the notion of states defining marriage as being a constitutional thing, or if they invest it fully into the preview of the federal. Till then....meh
    The lower court rulings are not irrelevant. The Supremes examine the arguments in the rulings made by those lower courts with purpose. In addition, the lower courts can foreshadow the relative strength of the logic in the inevitably differing opinions. As such, I think they can assist in forecasting what the SCOTUS will eventually do.

    So far, the rulings have generally been following a logic somewhat like this:
    1. By precedent, Marriage is a right.
    2. The 14th compels equal protection of the laws.
    3. If the State has no compelling interest, the State must apply the 14th to the matter of whether the right of marriage extends to SSM.
    4. The State has no compelling interest.
    So, the 14th applies to SSM, and laws which say otherwise are illegal.

    This is rough, but it is the essence of what we are likely to see. I see no flaw in the reasoning unless a person holds with originalist jurisprudence, and that is a minority view on the current court. The originalists will attack the automatic connection in 3 above, saying that because the intent if the 14th did not extend to SSM at its inception, it's principles should not apply to it today. But they will not carry.

    Opponents of SSM will have to pin their hopes on Kennedy finding some flaw in the above, and my intuition says that will not occur. Outside of a seeming adoration of Corporate rights, he has generally been broad in his interpretation of individual rights. And, since he hasn't been particularly courageous in his application of a consistent jurisprudence, I see him blowing the way the wind is going on this one.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'd like to see statistics on how often getting government out of marriage came up and how many supported that... compared to now. I'd be interested in seeing the difference.
    I believe that slope upward would have started to climb right around interracial marriage bans going away.

    However, to be fair, I am a supporter of SSM and I want the government out of all marriage. I support SSM simply because I know marriages won't go away and therefore gays should have the same rights as well.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Human nature is evil

    Just because something appears in nature doesn't mean it should be approved of or used in defense of it being "normal" or "moral" or even "acceptable." As far as biology and sex goes, homosexuality is dysfunctional and "unnatural" in how those sex organs are being used. But that's besides the point.

    I sincerely hope this gets struck down. It is a grave injustice to the voters of VA to have their attorney general refuse to defend state laws and the state constitution in court and also have their ability to uphold traditional marriage, which has been the defacto marriage position for many many years, essentially removed largely due to a progressive judicial opinion and changes in public opinion. I'm happy for the gays in VA that may be able to get married and I support SSM, but not through this type of judicial tyranny and lack of legal representation for those on the other side. Equal rights is not imposing a new definition of marriage upon every state due to new social changes and acceptances of certain sex practices or sexual relationships. Equal rights is respecting the rights of voters who disagree and allowing them to govern as well. The 14th amendment should not extend to sexuality or personal sex choices/relationships unless amended.
    Absolutely nothing is being imposed upon you. Exactly what grave injustice have you just suffered? How is your life affected in any way? Does this ruling suddenly make you support homosexuality? Because it sure doesn't seem like your definition has changed at all. You have absolutely no response to the judge pointing out that restricting rights of women and minorities was once the "will of the people," and that people voted for interracial marriage bans. Why do you think "will of the people" stands the test of equal protection now when those laws did not?

    Unless you also think Loving v. Virginia was a grave injustice, in which case I withdraw the question.
    Last edited by Deuce; 02-14-14 at 10:51 AM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Just more overreach on the part of the Courts. That is the concern that should highlighted not issue of whether gay marriage should be allowed or not.

    Each State should determine what a legal marriage is. It should not be forced on a state by the Courts. There is nothing in the Constitution that would require gay marriage to be made mandatory for the States.
    Equal protection under the law requires it.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I believe that slope upward would have started to climb right around interracial marriage bans going away.

    However, to be fair, I am a supporter of SSM and I want the government out of all marriage. I support SSM simply because I know marriages won't go away and therefore gays should have the same rights as well.
    Why should the government be allowed to compel me to testify against my spouse? Why shouldn't I automatically inherit the possessions of my spouse and take custody of our children upon the spouse's death? Why shouldn't I have automatic medical power of attorney? Why shouldn't the government recognize such a relationship as a legal next-of-kin?
    Last edited by Deuce; 02-14-14 at 11:01 AM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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