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Thread: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

  1. #341
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Texashonor View Post
    when you say legal framework you are arguing the tax side of things, most polygamists are more about the religious aspect of the marriage then they are about the taxes they would be happy if they could simply have a religious ceremony to signify there marriage without being put in jail.
    Not only taxes, but medical decisions, inheritance, immigration, military housing and benefits, social security, etc.

    No one in this country can be jailed for having a private ceremony. The only way you will be jailed is if you fraudulently claim that you are legally married for government purposes.
    Look at Cody and his sister wives. They are on tv telling everyone that they are married, they have even shown footage of their wedding ceremonies, yet they are not in jail.
    " May you live as long as you wish, and love as long as you live"
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Texashonor View Post
    there can be a list just as you posted but here are the ones id like to debate.

    1) If Gay marriage were legalized then if a church were to deny a marriage because it was against there beliefs then they would lose there "nonprofit" business license.

    2) In a military sense if you allowed gays to marry people would all be married to be allowed off post housing and BAH along with many other things which then needs to be changed and it couldn't be just changed for gays it would restructure the entire format of BaH and make it less accessible to the military as a whole.
    1 is not true if the running some business serve not related to there religion then they might have some problems but no one can force a church to marry some one against its will

    I cant go into a Mormon temple with my girlfriend and demand to be married not even if were both believers

    no one is going to punish or force that church to marry me to any one

    2 ) if the military lets very female solder have a sham marriage to a fellow male one there just going to have to find a way to root out the exploiters or offer equality

    surly there all involved in that kind of scam or else why would you say all of are unmarred male troops are going to marry one another

  3. #343
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Texashonor View Post
    there can be a list just as you posted but here are the ones id like to debate.

    1) If Gay marriage were legalized then if a church were to deny a marriage because it was against there beliefs then they would lose there "nonprofit" business license.

    2) In a military sense if you allowed gays to marry people would all be married to be allowed off post housing and BAH along with many other things which then needs to be changed and it couldn't be just changed for gays it would restructure the entire format of BaH and make it less accessible to the military as a whole.
    1. not true. Churches already decide who can and who can't get married in their churches. Churches deny ceremonies based on the religion of the couple, some deny ceremonies to divorced people, some even deny ceremonies based on the race of the couple.

    2. Nor so, if you currently have to be legally married to get military housing or benefits, then changing the gender of the people in the marriage changes nothing. A female married to a male gets housing and benefits, a male married to a female gets housing and benefits, a male married to a mal gets housing and benefits, a female married to a female gets housing and benefits. The gender of the two people has no bearing on the rules.
    " May you live as long as you wish, and love as long as you live"
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by blarg View Post
    1 is not true if the running some business serve not related to there religion then they might have some problems but no one can force a church to marry some one against its will

    I cant go into a Mormon temple with my girlfriend and demand to be married not even if were both believers

    no one is going to punish or force that church to marry me to any one

    2 ) if the military lets very female solder have a sham marriage to a fellow male one there just going to have to find a way to root out the exploiters or offer equality

    surly there all involved in that kind of scam or else why would you say all of are unmarred male troops are going to marry one another
    even for me that needs work


    1 is not true if they are running some business with services not related to there religion then they might have some problems but no one can force a church to marry some one against its will

    I cant go into a Mormon temple with my girlfriend and demand to be married not even if were both believers

    no one is going to punish or force that church to marry me to any one

    2 ) if the military lets very female solder have a sham marriage to a fellow male one there just going to have to find a way to root out the exploiters or offer equality

    surly there all involved in that kind of scam or else why would you say all of are unmarred male troops are going to marry one another

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Texashonor View Post
    when you say legal framework you are arguing the tax side of things, most polygamists are more about the religious aspect of the marriage then they are about the taxes they would be happy if they could simply have a religious ceremony to signify there marriage without being put in jail.
    Then you're talking about two different things.

    There's a difference between saying:

    1) Making personal religious ceremonies and arrangements of polygamous marriages legal to be entered into

    and

    2) Making polygamous marriages legal as federal law.

    The later would be akin to what's being argued with regards to same sex marriage. Same Sex religious marriages and arrangements are already legal. What's being argued for is federal/state official recognition of that marriage as a matter of law.

    Allowing polygamous individuals to enter into a private, non-legally binding agreement on the basis of a religious grounds is an entirely different discussion to one suggesting the Government allowed polygamists marriages in the same fashion it allows marriage as a matter of law currently.

    And with such an argument, there are a plethora of differences within the contexts of the arguments for and against comparitive to the arguments for/against same sex marriage...which is why equating them as direct analogs in this fashion is foolish.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Texashonor View Post
    1) If Gay marriage were legalized then if a church were to deny a marriage because it was against there beliefs then they would lose there "nonprofit" business license.
    Gay Marriage is already legal in some states. Do you have evidence that any churches in these states have lost their "nonprofit" business license based on denying to perform a marriage ceremony for those that are against their belief?

    If not, you're simply making a claim with no backing and demanding people prove a negative which is a poor form of debate.

    If so, please present the links and then we could adequettely debate it as you desire.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    We are? Does everyone know this?

    As long as it is agreed to that marriage is more than a sort of contract that is desirable for personal and social reasons I'm O.K.

    And to think that this was just discovered in the past decade or so and is causing such contention.
    Everyone should know this, however some choose to stay ignorant of facts. Some want others to abide by their view of marriage because they feel they somehow own the right to exclusively define marriage for everyone.

    Personal marriage is whatever the couple wants it to be and makes of it. Legal marriage is a legal recognition of kinship provided by a legal contract that helps to protect the two people involved from others and even each other in many ways.

    Actually, it was discovered long ago, it was simply acknowledged as having deeper implications about a decade ago.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #348
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Texashonor View Post
    cite me that law in most states that is simply not true.

    the piece of paper is a very common one if you go to a law firm you would in most cases not need to even see a lawyer unless they were hustling you and trying to make you pay for time. The piece is very similar to the "power of attorney" paperwork so would take less time and less paperwork then a marriage license.

    Yes it does matter because if there is no advantage a disadvantage or simply a marginal advantage then you have to take into account the Cons as well.
    There is no legal contract that is simpler or cheaper that gives as much legal protection and recognition than the marriage license. Nothing. It is a medical POA, limited POA, legal kinship recognition document (similar in manner to a birth certificate or adoption record), shared asset agreement, and so much more all in one simple document for a single one-time fee.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #349
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by blarg View Post
    1 is not true if the running some business serve not related to there religion then they might have some problems but no one can force a church to marry some one against its will

    I cant go into a Mormon temple with my girlfriend and demand to be married not even if were both believers

    no one is going to punish or force that church to marry me to any one

    2 ) if the military lets very female solder have a sham marriage to a fellow male one there just going to have to find a way to root out the exploiters or offer equality

    surly there all involved in that kind of scam or else why would you say all of are unmarred male troops are going to marry one another
    The military currently roots out fraudulant marriages. They are one of the few government agencies that do (they may be one of the few that legally can given privacy rights). Male/female couples now hook up in marriage for bennies. They are generally referred to as "contract marriages". Now, it is rare because most people figure they either get BAH anyway (most are eligible by E-5 or E-6, depending on the branch) or they figure its not worth the risk since the person could always claim a legitimate marriage and take good portions of your money from a divorce. That little bit of BAH (which goes to your housing costs anyway, particularly if you weren't eligible for BAH prior to the marriage since most commands require E-5 and below that are married to live in housing and housing gets all of your BAH automatically) is nothing compared to being tied down in a marriage you have to pretend to. Plus, you can get into trouble for adultery if you are married in such a marriage and sleeping with other people and caught. Doing this sort of thing with someone of the same sex would be even more risky since they could easily look and see how many people knew the person or suspected they were gay (most didn't exactly hide it) prior to the marriage. It would look mighty suspicious.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Texashonor View Post
    when you say legal framework you are arguing the tax side of things, most polygamists are more about the religious aspect of the marriage then they are about the taxes they would be happy if they could simply have a religious ceremony to signify there marriage without being put in jail.
    They can do that. How do you think the FLDS do it? They have a religious ceremony that makes them married without actually getting the legal bennies from it. Heck, same sex couples have been doing such things for decades (does no one watch Friends, there was a lesbian wedding in the first season, before any state in our nation legalized same sex marriage). The issue at hand is legal recognition, not personal/religious recognition of marriages.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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