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Thread: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

  1. #311
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Irrelevant.
    It is only irrelevant if one has an ideological axe to grind. A better argument would be that the definition and the inherent privileges of marriage have changed over time and that the proposed idea of gay marriage is not that alien given the changes have already occurred.

    No you don't, because you called it an issue of sexual identity.
    Sorry I was not the one that introduced that I was responding to a comment on it.

    You discussed it.
    Ditto.

    A distinction of gender is still being made under the law.
    I was pointing out an error that equality does not mean that people are identical. And I will expand on that statement saying that different individuals of a defined group of people are not identical either though they are equal.

    Equal protection on the basis of gender is not a point of contention.
    When it comes to marriage and where people think of marriage as a covenant with God yes it does if you have it between two members of the same gender. This is all the more reason why it might be a good idea to limit the State as just a record bearer instead of the one that makes such official. This idea will might eventually occur sometime at the end of this century at the earliest.


    What do you mean "wrong equipment" and "wrong sort?"
    I am adding a bit of humor into what is becoming a heated argument. The "wrong equipment" is of course the piping that people have to excrete urea. The "wrong sort" has to do with the strange other people who live on the wrong side of the tracks or those who crack the wrong end of a boiled egg to eat it.

    I see no reason to wait until people are comfortable with civil rights.
    The question is whether or not marriage between same sex couples IS a civil right. I think that "your" side is gong to win the argument.
    Marriage with respect to the state is separated from the religious underpinnings.
    That is not obvious. In the US marriage IS still considered a very religious thing.

    The government doesn't care whether or not you got married in a church or a 7-11.
    The problem is not what the government "establishment" cares about but what certain religious people are concerned about when the concept of same sex marriage is brought to the fore. What concerns me is that the Courts must make a ruling based on an appropriate legal metaphysical basis and not one based on a political contemporary ideology.

    Actions are more important than appearances.
    Appropriate actions must not appear to be wrongful actions.

    Reality is more important than opinion.
    Opinion must be informed thru "reality" and thus be informed opinion.

    People are being discriminated against and it needs to stop.
    We are talking about a new idea and one that in my opinion will be adopted eventually. Don't be too impatient. Enjoy the journey even though the destination is important.
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  2. #312
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Then you are simply in denial of the obvious. The state has to be able to justify restrictions in its laws that show people being treated differently, unequal. That is the EPC of the 14th, and it has been extended to laws when it comes to marriage and it has included all sorts of characteristics used to determine restrictions, many times with those things being struck down (Turner v Safley, Zablocki v Redhail, and Loving v VA). Those are all cases where state marriage restrictions were struck down as unconstitutional because the state was unable to show how those restrictions actually further any state interest. Currently, they cannot show how restricting marriage based on sex/gender furthers any legitimate state interest.
    As long as the rulings do not involve extra-constitutional additions in the decision I would be okay with with a similar verdict.
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  3. #313
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The part of marriage we are discussing is contract law.
    We are? Does everyone know this?


    Same sex couples can already have the metaphysical/personal marriage.
    As long as it is agreed to that marriage is more than a sort of contract that is desirable for personal and social reasons I'm O.K.




    The contract is what is being denied to them.
    And to think that this was just discovered in the past decade or so and is causing such contention.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) thats meaningless, theres religious ties to lots for things. Religious marriage has nothing to do with legal marriage. Not saying you just saying in general anybody clinging to that is extremely misguided.
    2.) i agree i give it 5 years max before equal rights for gays is national
    3.) youll have to explain this more as i dont know what specifically your fear is

    what ideological bend of a judge are you concerned about
    what spurious reasoning are you concerned about
    what will be "forced" on the states that you you are concerned about
    what are the states now not willing to accept
    1. Sorry it is not meaningless. It may be a point of no reasonable concern but is not meaningless.

    2. It can happen in 5 but I think that the Supreme Court will want to make a ruling sending back to the States a challenge to find a legitimate State interest to restrict marriage to two people of different gender. If this is not handled properly an Article V Convention could be called just for this issue which can upset a city's worth of apple carts when it does convene.

    3. A badly worded Judaical ruling is worse than a badly worded law. I worry of unattended consequences of such a badly worded ruling.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    One thing that is actually really bothering me about a lot of these SSM cases is that they are holding that SSM bans don't meet the rational basis test. They are NOT holding that SSM is subject to strict scrutiny the way that interracial marriage is under Loving v Virginia. It's a way of hedging their bets and it's preventing any of these decisions from having national implications. The case that truly secures equality for sexual orientations will have to extend greater constitutional protection than rational basis. These cases are obviously a step in the right direction, but some judge is going to have to address the level of constitutional scrutiny that SSM should have before this will be settled.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    1. Sorry it is not meaningless. It may be a point of no reasonable concern but is not meaningless.

    2. It can happen in 5 but I think that the Supreme Court will want to make a ruling sending back to the States a challenge to find a legitimate State interest to restrict marriage to two people of different gender. If this is not handled properly an Article V Convention could be called just for this issue which can upset a city's worth of apple carts when it does convene.

    3. A badly worded Judaical ruling is worse than a badly worded law. I worry of unattended consequences of such a badly worded ruling.
    1.) no its meaningless to the discussion of legal marriage. It has no merit in the discussion or impact. Religion marriage is a separate thing. Its meaningless
    2.) i doubt that ever happens, SCOUTS may punt but they will never send it back to the states and allow the states to violate rights. The state should have ZERO say on this particular matter and within 5 years SCOUTS will fix this. WIth all the SSC rulings and the recent federal court rulings, it will probably happen in 2-3 actually.

    3.) this answers nothing its a dodge. Ill ask again

    what ideological bend of a judge are you concerned about
    what spurious reasoning are you concerned about
    what will be "forced" on the states that you you are concerned about
    what are the states now not willing to accept
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    As more and more states become rational and declare SSM legal Scotus will eventually have to make a ruling to unite all of these decisions not to state constitutions but the US Constitution. It will then be written in stone. Bravo Virginia.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Yes, appeal to tradition is a fallacy. "This is how we did it before" is not a reason in itself to continue doing it.
    And if I were so inclined that you are making an appeal, I would say you are making an appeal to novelty.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) no its meaningless to the discussion of legal marriage. It has no merit in the discussion or impact. Religion marriage is a separate thing. Its meaningless
    2.) i doubt that ever happens, SCOUTS may punt but they will never send it back to the states and allow the states to violate rights. The state should have ZERO say on this particular matter and within 5 years SCOUTS will fix this. WIth all the SSC rulings and the recent federal court rulings, it will probably happen in 2-3 actually.

    3.) this answers nothing its a dodge. Ill ask again

    what ideological bend of a judge are you concerned about
    what spurious reasoning are you concerned about
    what will be "forced" on the states that you you are concerned about
    what are the states now not willing to accept
    1. The problem is that marriage has religious elements in general though not in a specific case. Perhaps the legal marriage should not have such but I think that is the underlying assumption. Only civil marriages conducted before jurist or justice of the peace have no religious element. Only civil marriages themselves would religion be considered meaningless.

    2. No I am saying that they will require that the States have a better reason to forbid same sex marriage than that is what the definition of marriage is.

    3. It doesn't matter what is the ideological bent having one and letting that get in the way of making a well written decision is bad.

    What I think is spurious is extra-constitutional reasonings to make such decisions.

    That which is forced on States was just a dependent clause to clarify what the dominant clause was talking about.

    That which the States are not willing to accept is just what is occurring in other States.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    1. The problem is that marriage has religious elements in general though not in a specific case. Perhaps the legal marriage should not have such but I think that is the underlying assumption. Only civil marriages conducted before jurist or justice of the peace have no religious element. Only civil marriages themselves would religion be considered meaningless.

    2. No I am saying that they will require that the States have a better reason to forbid same sex marriage than that is what the definition of marriage is.

    3. It doesn't matter what is the ideological bent having one and letting that get in the way of making a well written decision is bad.

    4.)What I think is spurious is extra-constitutional reasonings to make such decisions.

    5.) That which is forced on States was just a dependent clause to clarify what the dominant clause was talking about.

    6.) That which the States are not willing to accept is just what is occurring in other States.
    1.) thats not a problem its made up its 100% meaningless and bringing up religion in a discussion of legal marriage is a complete failed strawman.

    Legal marriage factually has nothing to do with religion. this fact will never change

    2.) so like i said it wont be up to the states since that would violate rights

    3.) still dodging the questions and not committing. This thread as a topic and its equal rights for gays so apply your concerns to that and give us real examples instead of dodges and meaningless generalizations.

    4.) what is " extra-constitutional reasoning" and whats an example of that pertaining to equal rights for gays
    5.) see 4 what specifically would be forced on the states that applies to equal rights for gays
    6.) see 5 and 4

    please provide REAL answers
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