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Thread: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    A friend of mine said government is used to manage people where they fail or can't manage themselves.
    You might seek other opinions. People say very silly things.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You might seek other opinions. People say very silly things.
    Very true, we all say silly things from time to time. But I think he had a point, if you think about it, our government tries to manage our daily lives and how we live. Whether that is what we want or not is another question.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Very true, we all say silly things from time to time. But I think he had a point, if you think about it, our government tries to manage our daily lives and how we live. Whether that is what we want or not is another question.
    Again, I don't believe that. I live everyday with no real interference. Sure, I can't harm others. But nothing prevents me from living my life as I want to live it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Very true, we all say silly things from time to time. But I think he had a point, if you think about it, our government tries to manage our daily lives and how we live. Whether that is what we want or not is another question.
    I guess that depends on your definition of "manage." I work where I choose to work. I eat what I choose to eat. I don't have a bed time. I am friends with the people I want to be friends with.

    But they also dictate that I must periodically prove I am safely able to fly an aircraft so that I don't kill my passengers, so I guess they're overly intrusive.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The government is required to deny same sex couples access to contract as the Marriage License is government issued and recognized contract. That force needs to be legitimized, and can only be done so if the exercise has infringed upon the rights of others. When we elicit government force for issues which do not infringe upon the rights of others, rarely is that force legitimate.

    I do not understand the usage of force in this issue. A State may decide to allow marriage between same sex couples or not. The issue is academic with me since I will not likely marry myself. I am concerned that the Courts are using this as an ideological issue and might not be careful in its reasoning in mandating on a must issue basis. I do not yet see that there can be a good reasoning to override the Power of a State for marriage here and if it is done it must be done very carefully or we will see what can arise out of it.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I'd answer the rest of your post but I don't have time at this moment. For now consider the following....



    There are lots of Rights that people have that are not explicitly stated in the Constitution. That was the whole point of the 9th Amendment being added to the Bill of Rights: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." IE: Not all the rights that we have are explicitly stated in the Constitution.
    That is absolutely true. The main issue is where the Rights of the People are and the Powers of the State are. The set up that we have is a sort of Game with subtle rules and I do not trust the State much farther than I trust the Federal part of government. That said since determining what is considered valid for marriage is at the State level is very much an established given. I do not trust what I see is a arbitrary rulings on the Federal Courts against the State laws here.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by blarg View Post
    they don't have the power to violate the 14th amendment of the untied states in their determination
    The question is whether the existing standard of marriage is between two people of different genders and maintaining that standard somehow violates the 14th Amendment now.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by blarg View Post
    how do you separate gay marriage from gender? and equal protection for all citizens is established so any law that violates it is unconstitutional

    what loop holes would let you endanger or exploit children if you alow gay marriage do to the that gay marriage is an identical situation and institution to heterosexual marriages that we allow?
    I suspect that these decisions are more on ideological grounds than an interpretation of Constitutional Law. I'm not a Constitutional lawyer but I really do hope that these decisions are based on sound reasons and not just "we should go this way because its the 21st Century and we should do so because we think it is better". On the latter I am saying that a Judges version of the "lawyers disease" can occur. They make reasoning justifying their ruling and not being careful to see if it opens up abuses like I suggested.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    The question is whether the existing standard of marriage is between two people of different genders and maintaining that standard somehow violates the 14th Amendment now.
    It does violate the 14th amendment. A gender-based distinction (limiting a contract to a male and a female) requires an "important state interest" be served and that the measure is "substantially related" to that interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    I suspect that these decisions are more on ideological grounds than an interpretation of Constitutional Law. I'm not a Constitutional lawyer but I really do hope that these decisions are based on sound reasons and not just "we should go this way because its the 21st Century and we should do so because we think it is better". On the latter I am saying that a Judges version of the "lawyers disease" can occur. They make reasoning justifying their ruling and not being careful to see if it opens up abuses like I suggested.

    The rulings are based on sound reasons. You should read them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The constitution does require equal protection regarding gender. Defining marriage as between one man and one woman is a gender-based distinction.
    It is the assumption under common law and has been so since this country's beginnings under the Constitution until recently.




    Don't confuse marriage with sex. Ask any married man: marriage and sex are not the same thing. Sex is not a requirement for marriage, nor is procreation.
    I understand this point even though I am not married nor will I ever intend to get married.


    ...precisely why your mention of sexual identity earlier is erroneous.
    I am not the one who brought it up.

    Gender is a protected classification.
    Men and women are coequal under the law but that doesn't make them identical.

    Same with gender!
    I believe that is the point that in this country is a the point of contention.


    Well, it is that, actually. That's the intent: discrimination against homosexuals. Tradition doesn't matter. Your approval doesn't matter. My approval doesn't matter. Everyone had the same access to same-race marriages too.
    I understand your point of view. But there is a difference between the State deciding between the wrong sort (which it should not) and the wrong equipment (which is in my view open).


    Why
    is your comfort level relevant here? "Too quickly?" Was interracial marriage done too quickly? Women's rights?
    The problem is that the society needs a little time to even know how to think on such things. Some States will have same sex marriages and they already do. The best argument that I can see is that marriage with respect to the State should be separated from the religious underpinnings that are apparently behind some of the opposition. And by some time I do not mean more than say a decade since that will be enough time to go thru any legal metaphysical reasoning that each State would make arguments pro or con. I really do not want gay marriage to be the next abortion rights struggle where people are seeking to use political means to force the issue one way or another.


    Your disapproval of court action on a different issue affects your approval of their handling of same-sex marriage? That's bizarre.
    I do not trust government. And with respect to the Courts even the appearance of ideological motivations poisons its intended role as a means of Justice.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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