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Thread: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    I don't quite know what you mean by the bolded sentence.
    The government is required to deny same sex couples access to contract as the Marriage License is government issued and recognized contract. That force needs to be legitimized, and can only be done so if the exercise has infringed upon the rights of others. When we elicit government force for issues which do not infringe upon the rights of others, rarely is that force legitimate.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    I'd answer the rest of your post but I don't have time at this moment. For now consider the following....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Again the problem is that the Courts read into the Constitution Rights that are not explicitly stated and negate the Power of a State by doing so they also decide to negate Rights of individuals such as to property and seizing it to give to competitor that would make more taxes for government is wrong.
    There are lots of Rights that people have that are not explicitly stated in the Constitution. That was the whole point of the 9th Amendment being added to the Bill of Rights: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." IE: Not all the rights that we have are explicitly stated in the Constitution.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by blarg View Post
    violating equal protection on account of gender is not any more constitutional

    letting kids marry is not givng them equl rights sice then in danger of being unable to detmine whats best for them and form being exploted

    this


    Marriage is a civil contract, and in that character alone is dealt with by the municipal law. The same right to make a contract as is enjoyed by white citizens, means the right to make any contract which a white citizen may make.

    applies to same sex marriage along gender

    if a man and women both meet the requirements to marry a man or a woman then men and women should be free to make that same contract

    theirs no difference in the marriage contract to a man or women based on either race or gender

    Marriage is a civil contract, and in that character alone is dealt with by the municipal law. The same right to make a contract as is enjoyed by male citizens, means the right to make any contract which a male citizen may make.


    Marriage is a civil contract, and in that character alone is dealt with by the municipal law. The same right to make a contract as is enjoyed by female citizens,
    means the right to make any contract which a female citizen may make.
    What I gave was a hypothetical idea about kids being married as an analogs to the current issue. The idea of equal protection of gender and race is established. The idea of equal protection under the law with respect to marriage for same sex is not established. I believe that this will become established. I do think that it should be done carefully and I think that due care is not being done and I am worried about loopholes that could occur if such hypotheticals are not checked.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    I understand then the issue is that States do not have the Power to pass laws determining what would constitute a valid marriage.
    they don't have the power to violate the 14th amendment of the untied states in their determination

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    But isn't that similar to what happened with Hollingsworth?
    I do believe it's similar, but slightly different as the intervening individuals stance in the CA case is slightly different in the VA case with the clerk being the focal point of the defense. Now that may not hold up at the SCOTUS level, but to my understanding (And admittedly I don't care a great deal on the issue, or on the lower court cases, so my reading of it may very well be off a bit. If so I'm sure you'll highlight where) they would be somewhat different. Though it could come to the same conclusion ultimately.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    What I gave was a hypothetical idea about kids being married as an analogs to the current issue. The idea of equal protection of gender and race is established. The idea of equal protection under the law with respect to marriage for same sex is not established. I believe that this will become established. I do think that it should be done carefully and I think that due care is not being done and I am worried about loopholes that could occur if such hypotheticals are not checked.
    how do you separate gay marriage from gender? and equal protection for all citizens is established so any law that violates it is unconstitutional

    what loop holes would let you endanger or exploit children if you alow gay marriage do to the that gay marriage is an identical situation and institution to heterosexual marriages that we allow?

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    States establish the definition of marriage when the Courts decide that the definition the State uses is "Un-Constitutional" then yes they do make a definition of marriage. Previously we did have States who prohibited mixed race marriages and they were Unconstitutioal (no quote marks) since the Constitution explicitly requires equal protection with respect to race so in that instance the States are prohibited to transgress there. There is no explicit requirement with respect to sexual idenity. I'm sorry this is somthing that the culture will have to deal with and it will probably take a couple of generations in some States to resolve.
    The constitution does require equal protection regarding gender. Defining marriage as between one man and one woman is a gender-based distinction. Don't confuse marriage with sex. Ask any married man: marriage and sex are not the same thing. Sex is not a requirement for marriage, nor is procreation.

    Yes, but there is no need to test whether is a person has a sexual slant for marriage.
    ...precisely why your mention of sexual identity earlier is erroneous.
    Unless there is a specific prohibition in the Constitution the States can make any requirement for marriage even things like income if they chose. I would not favor any restriction beyond prohibiting marriage between second dgree or closer, multiple partners, 17 or older, and be mentally competent. The fact that both partners must consent is implied.
    Gender is a protected classification.
    The prohibitions on mixed race marriages was Un-Constitutional since the Constitution requires equal protection with regard to race. The same with respect to the Jim Crow laws.
    Same with gender!

    The problem is that this is not a discrimination a against a particular group of people treating them differently. The laws are not specifiably requiring that gay people cannot have the same access that every one else does but that States do have the Power to decide what marriage is. Marriage from the beginning of this country was between two people and between one man and one woman. Having marriage between two of the same gender is a change (and is new) and there is on support in the Constitution requiring this bo be so.
    Well, it is that, actually. That's the intent: discrimination against homosexuals. Tradition doesn't matter. Your approval doesn't matter. My approval doesn't matter. Everyone had the same access to same-race marriages too.

    States do not determine what Rights people have. Rights are inherent. Marriage is a sort of contract and contracts involve State Power and it is within State Power to determine what is a valid marriage. Keep in mind that gay marriage at least in the United States is a new thing and I think the Courts are going too quickly on this. I do think that States will have to recognize the legitimacy of married gay couples from other States and this will be what determines whether most States will eventually adopt it.
    Why is your comfort level relevant here? "Too quickly?" Was interracial marriage done too quickly? Women's rights?

    With respect on my being Libertarian, I do not oppose gay marriage but for now the States do have the authority rule it out unless we have an Amendment that says otherwise. I should also point out that States such as Illinois had undue restrictions against gun ownership even though the Constitution explicitly says that the Citizens have a right to own and bear them. I WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO GIVE THE COURTS A PASS ON THIS IF THEY WOULD UPHOLD THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND I'M ALSO TALKING ABOUT THE FIFTHS JUST COMPENSATION FOR TAKING PROPERTY THAT WAS WEAKENED BY THE COURTS.
    Your disapproval of court action on a different issue affects your approval of their handling of same-sex marriage? That's bizarre.
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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I love how well she puts it too.



    She didn't beat around the bush at all about it. In simple terms, she told the proponents of the law that their reasoning holds no water in the law and has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage. Tradition is not valid. Enforcing the will of the people is not valid when it comes to a constitutional challenge. And the claim of "responsible procreation" is not valid (since without some major restrictions upon opposite sex marriages, marriage laws have nothing to do with procreation and limiting same sex couples from marriage in no way harms responsible procreation).
    If marriage was only about procreation, then those who are infertile or women who have been through menopause would not be allowed to wed. Besides, gays can and do procreate.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    The problem is that gay marriage is a new idea and the Courts should at least hold off until there has been enough time has past where States have made laws on this and with the reasoning those laws were enacted.
    Interracial marriage was a new idea.

    There is noting explicit in the Constitution that would make gay marriage a Right. Technically marriage is not a Right at all. Loving vs Virgina was delivered not due to a Right of marriage but due to a prohibition of a violation of equal protection on account of race. Also the question is does States have the Power to make laws respecting an establishment marriage or not?
    Literally the opposite of the truth. Loving v. Virginia literally declared marriage to be a fundamental right.


    States forbid marriage to children for example. And there are people who want children to have the equal rights as adults. By the same reasoning States could be required to grant marriages to children also. This is an extreme example but I am thinking hypothetically here.
    Equal protection is not a universal magic bullet. The state can still uphold unequal protection when an important enough interest exists in doing so. With children, preventing them from entering permanent legal contracts is a pretty clear interest - children lack the emotional and intellectual capacity to make such decisions in their own best interests, or anyone else's for that matter.

    Such an interest does not exist in banning same-sex marriage. There are certainly state interests in the existence of marriage, and the promotion of stable families, procreation, and all that jazz that goes with marriage. But the banning of same-sex marriages does not in any way further any of those interests, nor does same-sex marriage cause any sort of demonstrable harm. Therefore same-sex marriage bans do not pass the test of equal protection, but the age requirement does pass the test of equal protection. Marrying animals and furniture are just stupid, desperate diversions from real discuss. Animals and furniture aren't people, they don't have rights.
    Last edited by Deuce; 02-14-14 at 10:43 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Federal Judge Rules Va. Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Interracial marriage was a new idea.
    No it wasn't.

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