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Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinner

Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
Well, that's a leap. Can you not conceive of the possibility that you may be wrong? It happens to all of us. He testified before congress. Answered a direct question. Gave a clear and unambiguous answer. Isn't it just possible he is telling it as he sees it?
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Maybe it is a leap, but I'd like to think not...Progressive policies are killing this country piece by piece, as I look around I see downtown half closed, I drive and see shopping plaza's still shuttered, I talk to other friends in the transportation field and hear how hard it is to get loads, and I watch the news and hear how the US only created some 77,000 jobs last month, but yet the UE rate went down a tick because another half million dropped out of the work force, and it's trumpeted as not only good news, but a recovery.

Then I look at what you are saying about the CBO, and the ACA and I see that the original estimate of cost was below a trillion, coming in at $780 Billion according to who else, the CBO, now that has tripled. I saw the CBO estimate the Stimilus which came in at twice what they estimated. So, I look up how they operate, and how any entity that can be wrong every time they estimate something still is looked to when the rhetoric starts flying, and I find this:

“Everyone should know that any number will be either too high or too low,” Donald Marron, a former CBO deputy director told The Daily Caller.

There are a number of problems associated with CBO’s estimates. Some have to do with the games Congress itself plays with numbers. In the case of highly complex programs like health care, a myriad of variables can throw estimates off. In fact, the government’s track record for estimating health-care program costs is poor.



Read more: Congressional Budget Office consistently wrong on health-care estimates | The Daily Caller
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and this

Economic forecasts are useful, writes Len Burman, but you have to account for the fact that they’re usually wrong:
The forecasts are usually off the mark, sometimes by quite a lot. Most recently, CBO forecast 2.3 percent average annual growth for 2008 and 2009. It turned out that the economy contracted by an average of 1 percent per year. The Blue-Chip forecasters similarly underestimated the depth of the recession, which was a factor in the underpowered economic stimulus measures enacted to try to combat the downturn. Everyone also underestimated the expansion of the economy in the 1990s.

Economic forecasts: Useful, but almost always wrong - The Washington Post
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Then I have you in here telling me that you'd rather put your trust in the CBO because you say they know more than you do on the particular subject, yet I am giving you not only two people above one of which a former deputy director of the CBO, saying that they are most often wrong in their estimates for the exact reasons I gave you and you ask me if I ever considered that I may be wrong? Well, Of course I do often. Any rational person with a smidgen of intelligence has to ponder that question, but on this? Absolutely not.

You can tout the CBO from here until the cows come home, and when it plays out we will find that the report that you push today on page one, will be adjusted in the future on page 26, and we won't hear a peep of how you were wrong now....So you'll excuse me if not only myself, but a majority of Americans are just not trusting Obama at present, or anyone associated with him.

As for Elmendorf telling it as he sees it, just remember the old computer axiom...."Junk in - Junk out!"
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
Maybe it is a leap, but I'd like to think not...Progressive policies are killing this country piece by piece, as I look around I see downtown half closed, I drive and see shopping plaza's still shuttered, I talk to other friends in the transportation field and hear how hard it is to get loads, and I watch the news and hear how the US only created some 77,000 jobs last month, but yet the UE rate went down a tick because another half million dropped out of the work force, and it's trumpeted as not only good news, but a recovery.

Then I look at what you are saying about the CBO, and the ACA and I see that the original estimate of cost was below a trillion, coming in at $780 Billion according to who else, the CBO, now that has tripled. I saw the CBO estimate the Stimilus which came in at twice what they estimated. So, I look up how they operate, and how any entity that can be wrong every time they estimate something still is looked to when the rhetoric starts flying, and I find this:
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I don't know what country you're living in, but the country is not being killed. Urban sprawl is changing the landscape, and outsourcing has had an effect, but these having little to do with either liberal or conservative. Hacks just try to make you think it does. I can get someone overseas to work for pennies, and not have to provide healthcare because their government has UHC. That's a huge draw for companies. And as we believe in the bottom line, we can only applaud them as they leave. Because the American dream is to work for a buck fifty an hour and die in a preventable fire due to unsafe working conditions. Yes, that was sarcasm, but meant to illustrate a point. There is a trade off for everything. Everything.



Then I have you in here telling me that you'd rather put your trust in the CBO because you say they know more than you do on the particular subject, yet I am giving you not only two people above one of which a former deputy director of the CBO, saying that they are most often wrong in their estimates for the exact reasons I gave you and you ask me if I ever considered that I may be wrong? Well, Of course I do often. Any rational person with a smidgen of intelligence has to ponder that question, but on this? Absolutely not.

You can tout the CBO from here until the cows come home, and when it plays out we will find that the report that you push today on page one, will be adjusted in the future on page 26, and we won't hear a peep of how you were wrong now....So you'll excuse me if not only myself, but a majority of Americans are just not trusting Obama at present, or anyone associated with him.

As for Elmendorf telling it as he sees it, just remember the old computer axiom...."Junk in - Junk out!"
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I laugh at how valid the CBO was when you thought it said what you agreed with. This is too common for both sides. But, the fact is we're first dealing with what was actually said. Once we agree on that, then we can talk about what others say.

However, if a person will never be convinced no matter the evidence, that person will never be convinced. I admit that the notion of pointing to what was going on before reform as evidence of reform being bad is unconvincing to me. How could it be the cause before it was even enacted? Decades before even proposed? It does confuse me how any logical person can make the argument. Cause and effect is difficult under the best of situations, but to claim cause for something that started so long before hand seems like an impossible case to make.

But the point here is there is no real reason for employers to lay people off, and no evidence that in any significant numbers that are. Maybe one day there will be, but it hasn't happened yet. And then to show ACA is the cause? You need more than someone's testimony. You need something measurable, verifiable.
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Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
I don't know what country you're living in, but the country is not being killed. Urban sprawl is changing the landscape, and outsourcing has had an effect, but these having little to do with either liberal or conservative. Hacks just try to make you think it does. I can get someone overseas to work for pennies, and not have to provide healthcare because their government has UHC. That's a huge draw for companies. And as we believe in the bottom line, we can only applaud them as they leave. Because the American dream is to work for a buck fifty an hour and die in a preventable fire due to unsafe working conditions. Yes, that was sarcasm, but meant to illustrate a point. There is a trade off for everything. Everything.
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Yes, yes...It is always some other excuse, because it could NEVER be a policy, or piece of legislation rammed through without thinking through the unintended consequences that cause any pain, just dump opposition conservatives that won't go along with destructive liberal ideas that is the problem...Good grief, talk about a victim mentality.

I laugh at how valid the CBO was when you thought it said what you agreed with.
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Which is exactly what you are doing here....So the laugh is on you Joe.

This is too common for both sides.
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Yep, and you are the one doing it now.

But, the fact is we're first dealing with what was actually said. Once we agree on that, then we can talk about what others say.
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Well, deal with that rather than your opinion of what is said...Spinning the job loss, and new taxation for your own political argument, then turning as you do here and giving an ultimatum that I need agree with you or we can not consider factual statements from two different sources if a non starter. Either debate, or don't, I don't care but when you do this you just look silly.

However, if a person will never be convinced no matter the evidence, that person will never be convinced. I admit that the notion of pointing to what was going on before reform as evidence of reform being bad is unconvincing to me. How could it be the cause before it was even enacted? Decades before even proposed? It does confuse me how any logical person can make the argument. Cause and effect is difficult under the best of situations, but to claim cause for something that started so long before hand seems like an impossible case to make.
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Maybe you could be a bit more coherent here, I have no idea what you are talking about.

But the point here is there is no real reason for employers to lay people off, and no evidence that in any significant numbers that are. Maybe one day there will be, but it hasn't happened yet. And then to show ACA is the cause? You need more than someone's testimony. You need something measurable, verifiable.
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Why is it that liberals must wait until the destruction is complete before they do anything about it, if even then? We don't need to wait until the ACA bankrupts America before we recognize it is a failed law out of the gates do we?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
Yes, yes...It is always some other excuse, because it could NEVER be a policy, or piece of legislation rammed through without thinking through the unintended consequences that cause any pain, just dump opposition conservatives that won't go along with destructive liberal ideas that is the problem...Good grief, talk about a victim mentality.
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Getting a little breaky here. This is usually when points get lost and tangents start.

But, we have many policies and factors. And many relate to outsourcing. I listed a few. The more critical ones I think. But here again, your response seem emotional and not a response to what was said. I don't mean to insult at all, but I want to respond with reasoning and not just say something silly back.


Which is exactly what you are doing here....So the laugh is on you Joe.
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No, I'm clarifying what was actually said. We haven't gotten beyond that yet.



Well, deal with that rather than your opinion of what is said...Spinning the job loss, and new taxation for your own political argument, then turning as you do here and giving an ultimatum that I need agree with you or we can not consider factual statements from two different sources if a non starter. Either debate, or don't, I don't care but when you do this you just look silly.
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Again, I report exactly what he said. He said in plain English that he was not painting it as a job Killer. And he stated why. I've given no spin. Just what he actually said.

Maybe you could be a bit more coherent here, I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Not sure what you don't understand. Much of what people put on ACA was happening before ACA. Jobs were moving to part time. Insurance premiums were rising. Companies were outsourcing. All before ACA. So logically, how do you blame ACA?

Why is it that liberals must wait until the destruction is complete before they do anything about it, if even then? We don't need to wait until the ACA bankrupts America before we recognize it is a failed law out of the gates do we?
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Well, I don't speak for liberals. I only speak for myself. But I think decisions should be based on evidence and not ideology. Not misreadings of what was said. Not partisan hyperbole. Not misinformation. But actual evidence. Do you think I'm wrong for that?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
Getting a little breaky here. This is usually when points get lost and tangents start.
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You started by breaking my response apart. But sometimes things need to be addressed separately..

No, I'm clarifying what was actually said. We haven't gotten beyond that yet.
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Oh, I think we have...You think what he said was absolute gospel, and I think it is not based on all the factors, or he is lying, one of the two...What else do we have to clarify?

Again, I report exactly what he said. He said in plain English that he was not painting it as a job Killer. And he stated why. I've given no spin. Just what he actually said.
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And I say that is spin, either by Elmendorf, or by the media, I don't care which...The bottom line is that at the end of the time period the result in plain english is that it will result in 2.5 million less jobs. Whether that is on the company laying people off, or a aggregate of reduced hours worked, it is a loss in productivity, and a shrinkage of the workforce period. Spin it how you want.

Not sure what you don't understand. Much of what people put on ACA was happening before ACA. Jobs were moving to part time. Insurance premiums were rising. Companies were outsourcing. All before ACA. So logically, how do you blame ACA?
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And the only way to attempt to reverse that trend was to ram through a 2800 page law that many don't understand, full of new taxes, and regulations? I don't buy it.

Well, I don't speak for liberals. I only speak for myself. But I think decisions should be based on evidence and not ideology. Not misreadings of what was said. Not partisan hyperbole. Not misinformation. But actual evidence. Do you think I'm wrong for that?
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And I prefer to monitor things as they go, and fix what we clearly see happening before it becomes a total disaster. But, I understand that the theory of Cloward/Piven which I believe is what is being done here, is not how liberals like you Joe want things to go....
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
You started by breaking my response apart. But sometimes things need to be addressed separately..
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Two not more.

Oh, I think we have...You think what he said was absolute gospel, and I think it is not based on all the factors, or he is lying, one of the two...What else do we have to clarify?
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You don't seem to accept that the CBO said it wasn't a job killer. Just said he did and we'll move on.



And I say that is spin, either by Elmendorf, or by the media, I don't care which...The bottom line is that at the end of the time period the result in plain english is that it will result in 2.5 million less jobs. Whether that is on the company laying people off, or a aggregate of reduced hours worked, it is a loss in productivity, and a shrinkage of the workforce period. Spin it how you want.
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Of course you do. But admit he said it. Voluntarily less people, not jobs. He also stated it would open up opportunity for others.



And the only way to attempt to reverse that trend was to ram through a 2800 page law that many don't understand, full of new taxes, and regulations? I don't buy it.
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I'm not sure ACA was to address that. It was to increase access and cut costs. We don't know about either yet.


And I prefer to monitor things as they go, and fix what we clearly see happening before it becomes a total disaster. But, I understand that the theory of Cloward/Piven which I believe is what is being done here, is not how liberals like you Joe want things to go....
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You remind me of the comma usage. Some believe we use a comma when we hear a pause. the problem is that can't be right. It can't be right because we all hear a different place. What is clear to me, is not to you. What is clear to you is not to me. And with everyone else.

As for the other, don't you think you're a little paranoid? I could counter with the theory that republicans can't govern which is why they try to make sure it breaks down. What do you think can be gained by this hyper-partisan nonsense?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
Two not more.



You don't seem to accept that the CBO said it wasn't a job killer. Just said he did and we'll move on.





Of course you do. But admit he said it. Voluntarily less people, not jobs. He also stated it would open up opportunity for others.





I'm not sure ACA was to address that. It was to increase access and cut costs. We don't know about either yet.




You remind me of the comma usage. Some believe we use a comma when we hear a pause. the problem is that can't be right. It can't be right because we all hear a different place. What is clear to me, is not to you. What is clear to you is not to me. And with everyone else.

As for the other, don't you think you're a little paranoid? I could counter with the theory that republicans can't govern which is why they try to make sure it breaks down. What do you think can be gained by this hyper-partisan nonsense?
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Look, all I know is that there has been nothing honest about this ACA from the start. Numbers manipulation is only a small part of the cynical approach liberals take in this. Just today they are out there touting a 4 million number as though all these people have paid for their plans, but they won't say how many have actually paid, so the number they give is meaningless.

I think if the truth were known about what is going on here American's would be outraged at the wanton destruction going on, and passed off with lies.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
Look, all I know is that there has been nothing honest about this ACA from the start. Numbers manipulation is only a small part of the cynical approach liberals take in this. Just today they are out there touting a 4 million number as though all these people have paid for their plans, but they won't say how many have actually paid, so the number they give is meaningless.

I think if the truth were known about what is going on here American's would be outraged at the wanton destruction going on, and passed off with lies.
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J anyone who goes down the liberals are evil or the conservatives are evil clearly has a skewed view. It's hard to maintain a civil conversation with that type of hyperbole.

But I will try.

Thus issue gas always been steeped in dishonesty from both sides. From wanting to kill granny to being socialist fascist communists. Remember Harry and Louise? As dishonest an attack as there ever was. In comparison, as contentious as this has been, at least something moved forward.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
J anyone who goes down the liberals are evil or the conservatives are evil clearly has a skewed view. It's hard to maintain a civil conversation with that type of hyperbole.

But I will try.

Thus issue gas always been steeped in dishonesty from both sides. From wanting to kill granny to being socialist fascist communists. Remember Harry and Louise? As dishonest an attack as there ever was. In comparison, as contentious as this has been, at least something moved forward.
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Along straight party lines.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
Along straight party lines.
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Well, at least we have you to say liberals are evil. Now that's thinking outside the partisan box for you. :lamo:roll::lamo:roll::lamo
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
Well, at least we have you to say liberals are evil. Now that's thinking outside the partisan box for you. :lamo:roll::lamo:roll::lamo
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So the vote wasn't straight down party lines? Or, it's just partisan to bring that fact up?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
So the vote wasn't straight down party lines? Or, it's just partisan to bring that fact up?
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I do apologize. I misread you.

Once the tea party poisoned the well, the Republican Party bailed. Added to their opposition to Obama even when he pets puppy's and helps veterans. Well, could there have been anything that wasn't down party lines?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
I do apologize. I misread you.

Once the tea party poisoned the well, the Republican Party bailed. Added to their opposition to Obama even when he pets puppy's and helps veterans. Well, could there have been anything that wasn't down party lines?
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How'd they do that?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
How'd they do that?
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I assume you mean the tea party. And I'm sure you remember:

“Pack the hall,” said a strategy memo circulated by the Web site Tea Party Patriots that instructed, “Yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/us/politics/08townhall.html?_r=0

I remember writing my representative, Republican Grassley, that he caved and allowed misinformation to win the day. I shared his response with you back then when I had the email (I don't any longer). He said that while it was true they were badly misinformed, he had to give their beliefs, no matter how inaccurate, credence. I told him that wasn't leadership. Grassley has always been a republican I respected, but on that day he dropped several notches.

The point is, they reacted by making many inaccurate claims. They did not want to listen or learn, as despite having no information, they knew everything (much like 14 year old daughter always did). They poisoned the discourse in this way. Actions have consequences, and this is what their actions contributed to creating.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
I assume you mean the tea party. And I'm sure you remember:

“Pack the hall,” said a strategy memo circulated by the Web site Tea Party Patriots that instructed, “Yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/us/politics/08townhall.html?_r=0

I remember writing my representative, Republican Grassley, that he caved and allowed misinformation to win the day. I shared his response with you back then when I had the email (I don't any longer). He said that while it was true they were badly misinformed, he had to give their beliefs, no matter how inaccurate, credence. I told him that wasn't leadership. Grassley has always been a republican I respected, but on that day he dropped several notches.

The point is, they reacted by making many inaccurate claims. They did not want to listen or learn, as despite having no information, they knew everything (much like 14 year old daughter always did). They poisoned the discourse in this way. Actions have consequences, and this is what their actions contributed to creating.
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By being "misinformed" I assume you mean not buying into the talking point propaganda, and asking questions that were embarrassing for the reps? (Don't answer that it's rhetorical, besides I know what you think about those that disagree with the ACA)...The fact is that this plan for a myriad of reasons is unpopular among the American people, and as it is continuing to roll out, and more people are harmed by it rather than helped, it can only be more of an anchor around the neck of demo's, and all the propaganda won't save demo's now....
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
By being "misinformed" I assume you mean not buying into the talking point propaganda, and asking questions that were embarrassing for the reps? (Don't answer that it's rhetorical, besides I know what you think about those that disagree with the ACA)...The fact is that this plan for a myriad of reasons is unpopular among the American people, and as it is continuing to roll out, and more people are harmed by it rather than helped, it can only be more of an anchor around the neck of demo's, and all the propaganda won't save demo's now....
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No, I mean what I said, absolute inaccurate cliams.

And no, you have been shown many times when asked about the things in the bill, it's actually popular. Is it so hard to actually look at all the information?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
No, I mean what I said, absolute inaccurate cliams.

And no, you have been shown many times when asked about the things in the bill, it's actually popular. Is it so hard to actually look at all the information?
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There are many small pieces, ie; children on til 26, pre existing conditions, etc. that people looking for the freebies will like, that is why the "candy" if you will was rolled out first, now it is time for the veggies and you'll see a lot of turned up noses.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
There are many small pieces, ie; children on til 26, pre existing conditions, etc. that people looking for the freebies will like, that is why the "candy" if you will was rolled out first, now it is time for the veggies and you'll see a lot of turned up noses.
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You're just making excuses. Polls have broke it down and asked about the major elements anf the results have been positive. It's is what it us.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
You're just making excuses. Polls have broke it down and asked about the major elements anf the results have been positive. It's is what it us.
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I can only hope that it works at this point, because the real purpose that I think it was fashioned for, is a much worse proposition.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
I can only hope that it works at this point, because the real purpose that I think it was fashioned for, is a much worse proposition.
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I know conspiracy theories are popular, but I think it's merely an attempt. I personally hope both sides stop the stupid demonizing and go to work to improve it. We'll disagree on what that should be, but adults should be able to work honestly toward a goal that's good for all.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
I know conspiracy theories are popular, but I think it's merely an attempt. I personally hope both sides stop the stupid demonizing and go to work to improve it. We'll disagree on what that should be, but adults should be able to work honestly toward a goal that's good for all.
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And what goal would that be? UHC?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

j-mac said:
And what goal would that be? UHC?
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That would be a good goal. No doubt. But I meant to addressing the healthcare issue the best way possible.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Boo Radley said:
That would be a good goal. No doubt. But I meant to addressing the healthcare issue the best way possible.
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I don't think that is a good goal, but it is the ends to the means put in place at the moment. But not before bankrupting the people. They should have let Republicans into the process, but no, they had to get all authoritarian and ram through a piece of cap that no one read in the middle of the night.
 
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