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Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinner

Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

It is the Obama Administration which s doing all the complaining about the shrinking middle class while also doing everything they can to encourage it.

Certainly the policies of the Johnson Administration started the ball rolling but the Obama Administration has aggravated the situation while claiming they intend to solve it. It is a fine combination of hypocrisy, inexperience, incompetence and faulty ideology we see in play here.

Simply not true. And no, you have the wrong cause and effect. It has been the weakening of worker rights, the outsourcing, and a populace too easily manipulated by talking heads. Obama's a minor player comparatively.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

A common LIV debate tactic, without actually having to debate.

There was nothing to debate there. It was too stupid to warrant debate.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

It was shrinking long before these policies. How far back will you guys reach to blame Obama. It seems everything that was happening is now his fault and due to reform. Can't you see any flaw in that reasoning?

Yes, it's all the fault of his predecessors, Obama can't help it.

But even if we give Obama credit for his lack of experience and years of incompetence, he still hasn't made oceans begin to slow nor our planet began to heal either.

Instead of putting his energy into slowing the oceans and saving the planet he should have taken a night school course in basic economics with demographics taught by a private tutor, perhaps..
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

There was nothing to debate there. It was too stupid to warrant debate.

No, it was not. If you don't have an articulate response then just ignore it. You're wasting space.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Yes, it's all the fault of his predecessors, Obama can't help it.

But even if we give Obama credit for his lack of experience and years of incompetence, he still hasn't made oceans begin to slow nor our planet began to heal either.

Instead of putting his energy into slowing the oceans and saving the planet he should have taken a night school course in basic economics with demographics taught by a private tutor, perhaps..

Clearly you've never or head anything I've ever written.

But out presidents don't control the economy. Period. And logically, you can place blame on current anything if it happened long before the current action. This is a logic issue.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

No, it was not. If you don't have an articulate response then just ignore it. You're wasting space.

No, it was stupid. Too stupid. Rates right up there with Bush us Hitler and behind 9/11. It was partisan hyperbole it worthy of of comment.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

No, it was stupid. Too stupid. Rates right up there with Bush us Hitler and behind 9/11. It was partisan hyperbole it worthy of of comment.

I would say it is more born out of frustration of today's liberal progressive meme telling conservatives to sit in a corner and shut up while being blamed for every ill of America. Dismissing every complaint of the current administration may make you feel better Joe, but it really doesn't lend anything to an honest conversation...

You are correct when you say that Obama is not at total and complete fault for what America is facing today, but he sure isn't helping situations any either. The problem I see is over reach of progressivism. Since Woodrow Wilson progressives have marched forward in furtherance of a pipe dream of equal outcomes that just simply can't exist in a free society unless they curtail that freedom at the expense of some in the benefit of others. These are not the ideals that made this country great, and the envy of the rest of the world.

Although, I do think that liberal progressives do have compassionate ideas when it comes to things like poverty, and an over arching sense of fairness in the broadest terms, what I see going on today is what happens when ever any political entity gains too much control, or decides to take that control without consent, and that is it becomes corrupt, and that is what you are seeing unfold today.

I can only hope that in coming elections that the people wake up and take back the ownership of the power of this nation that is supposed to reside in the people themselves, and put things back on a more balanced track where we come to decisions for the nation through true compromise, not brow beating the opposing party into submission on your way of doing things and calling that compromise.

Otherwise we are headed down a path that we know throughout history does not provide for the prosperity that has in the past made America the place in the world where an equality of opportunity, not necessarily outcomes abounds, and the worlds masses yearning to be free can once again look to us to set the example, and not just some other country in a long list of 'also participated'......
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

I would say it is more born out of frustration of today's liberal progressive meme telling conservatives to sit in a corner and shut up while being blamed for every ill of America. Dismissing every complaint of the current administration may make you feel better Joe, but it really doesn't lend anything to an honest conversation...

You are correct when you say that Obama is not at total and complete fault for what America is facing today, but he sure isn't helping situations any either. The problem I see is over reach of progressivism. Since Woodrow Wilson progressives have marched forward in furtherance of a pipe dream of equal outcomes that just simply can't exist in a free society unless they curtail that freedom at the expense of some in the benefit of others. These are not the ideals that made this country great, and the envy of the rest of the world.

Although, I do think that liberal progressives do have compassionate ideas when it comes to things like poverty, and an over arching sense of fairness in the broadest terms, what I see going on today is what happens when ever any political entity gains too much control, or decides to take that control without consent, and that is it becomes corrupt, and that is what you are seeing unfold today.

I can only hope that in coming elections that the people wake up and take back the ownership of the power of this nation that is supposed to reside in the people themselves, and put things back on a more balanced track where we come to decisions for the nation through true compromise, not brow beating the opposing party into submission on your way of doing things and calling that compromise.

Otherwise we are headed down a path that we know throughout history does not provide for the prosperity that has in the past made America the place in the world where an equality of opportunity, not necessarily outcomes abounds, and the worlds masses yearning to be free can once again look to us to set the example, and not just some other country in a long list of 'also participated'......

One, I don't know what self esteem issue makes anyone think they've been told to sit in the corner and shut up. So I won't go into that. But frustration being expressed is usually silly, and as such supports what I said. So thank you for the support.

J, yes, much like conservatives, liberals seek fairness. Where those lines are of going to far either way is debatable. But that's the point. Demonizing either side is silly. It's merely a matter of debate as to how far we go in either direction. Both sides fail when they go to far, and the pendulum will swing back the other way. But don't expect people to react reasonably to either side throw out hyperbolic silliness. When I was WS, I defended conservatives against the hyperbole liberals threw out. Bush wasn't Hitler. He wasn't behind 9/11. And he wasn't the antichrist. You get upset because I also won't entertain the silliness your side throws out. Think about that for a moment.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

One, I don't know what self esteem issue makes anyone think they've been told to sit in the corner and shut up. So I won't go into that. But frustration being expressed is usually silly, and as such supports what I said. So thank you for the support.

J, yes, much like conservatives, liberals seek fairness. Where those lines are of going to far either way is debatable. But that's the point. Demonizing either side is silly. It's merely a matter of debate as to how far we go in either direction. Both sides fail when they go to far, and the pendulum will swing back the other way. But don't expect people to react reasonably to either side throw out hyperbolic silliness. When I was WS, I defended conservatives against the hyperbole liberals threw out. Bush wasn't Hitler. He wasn't behind 9/11. And he wasn't the antichrist. You get upset because I also won't entertain the silliness your side throws out. Think about that for a moment.

Do you really expect a reasonable discussion when you start out your response to what I thought was a reasoned, thought out post, with a personal attack? My self esteem is just fine thank you for caring though. Frustration is a result many times to a one sided discussion. Nobody likes to have their ideas shot down, and never considered as legitimate. Part of conflict resolution is listening, we don't have either side doing that now. And further, yes, it is fair to say that Republicans or Conservatives are dismissed out of hand unreasonably, and told constantly that "elections have consequences" and because of that we that disagree need to just go along and unless we agree. Remember the Obama appearance where he was talking about "cleaning up the mess"? He said something to effect that "if the car was in the ditch, he didn't want those that put it there to be up front behind the wheel" we were to "get in the back"!!!! This kind of rhetoric is insulting. You expect that to be taken with graciousness and silence? Really? Much like your insulting opening to this post I am now responding to....

As for the lines being crossed being 'debatable', and without trying to sound too snarky, thank you Captain Obvious....I am sorry but we are on a political debate site, and you think you need to tell me that we are here to debate? I am not demonizing anyone today, if you read what I wrote, I am really trying hard to have a discussion about this, whether or not we can I guess is up to you.

The pendulum will swing for sure, you are correct about that...and I really don't want to continue down the path where either side of the isle needs total control of all branches of government to get anything done. That to me only seems to result in bad policy wouldn't you agree? And while you may see your time on WS as fair and balanced, and it is true that at that time years ago we both were probably more moderate in our views and responses, times move on, and it is a symptom you could say of ever increasing division in this country. How is that ever going to change if we just continue down the path, or look to 'the other guy' to change first? I don't get upset that silliness is not entertained, I get upset that you think you get to make the decision solely of what is silly.

Now, if we can move more toward making this about the topic and less about us individually, that would be in keeping with how this is supposed to go....So, in that vein, I'll ask a question, and see if you can discuss....Do you think it is a smart move for demo's to formulate the convoluted argument that being unemployed is a blessing?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Okay, it was a dumb comment.

But can we not fry this guy just because he made one dumb comment.

I am neither rep nor dem (I think both parties and almost all politicians are worse then useless - including this guy probably)...but I am sick of this PC nonsense that dehumanizes people.

Every tiny word uttered is over-analysed to such an extent that politicians are afraid to say ANYTHING off-the-cuff...so EVERYTHING is scripted. So they end up just being voice boxes for their political advisers.

Debates are not debates - they are just which politician (after dozens of hours of coaching) can best remember the answers his/her people told him/her to say.

I want humanity to come back to politics...which means not castrating every politician who makes a dumb statement...like this guy.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Do you really expect a reasonable discussion when you start out your response to what I thought was a reasoned, thought out post, with a personal attack? My self esteem is just fine thank you for caring though. Frustration is a result many times to a one sided discussion. Nobody likes to have their ideas shot down, and never considered as legitimate. Part of conflict resolution is listening, we don't have either side doing that now. And further, yes, it is fair to say that Republicans or Conservatives are dismissed out of hand unreasonably, and told constantly that "elections have consequences" and because of that we that disagree need to just go along and unless we agree. Remember the Obama appearance where he was talking about "cleaning up the mess"? He said something to effect that "if the car was in the ditch, he didn't want those that put it there to be up front behind the wheel" we were to "get in the back"!!!! This kind of rhetoric is insulting. You expect that to be taken with graciousness and silence? Really? Much like your insulting opening to this post I am now responding to....

As for the lines being crossed being 'debatable', and without trying to sound too snarky, thank you Captain Obvious....I am sorry but we are on a political debate site, and you think you need to tell me that we are here to debate? I am not demonizing anyone today, if you read what I wrote, I am really trying hard to have a discussion about this, whether or not we can I guess is up to you.

The pendulum will swing for sure, you are correct about that...and I really don't want to continue down the path where either side of the isle needs total control of all branches of government to get anything done. That to me only seems to result in bad policy wouldn't you agree? And while you may see your time on WS as fair and balanced, and it is true that at that time years ago we both were probably more moderate in our views and responses, times move on, and it is a symptom you could say of ever increasing division in this country. How is that ever going to change if we just continue down the path, or look to 'the other guy' to change first? I don't get upset that silliness is not entertained, I get upset that you think you get to make the decision solely of what is silly.

Now, if we can move more toward making this about the topic and less about us individually, that would be in keeping with how this is supposed to go....So, in that vein, I'll ask a question, and see if you can discuss....Do you think it is a smart move for demo's to formulate the convoluted argument that being unemployed is a blessing?

No, I expected you to have a sense of humor.

But your response is over the top, so maybe it was too close to home. In any case, you responded to discussion of the silliness. The point is debate isn't furthered by that silliness you seem to like and defend. As I've told you, I'll debate as reasonable as you do. So, choose.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

No, I expected you to have a sense of humor.

But your response is over the top, so maybe it was too close to home. In any case, you responded to discussion of the silliness. The point is debate isn't furthered by that silliness you seem to like and defend. As I've told you, I'll debate as reasonable as you do. So, choose.

That's it? I've posted twice today, I think in a reasonable fashion, while you attack me personally...If you'd like to address the question at the end of my previous posting, then by all means we can talk about that. Short of that Have a good day Joe...I am not going to take your continued baiting.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

That's it? I've posted twice today, I think in a reasonable fashion, while you attack me personally...If you'd like to address the question at the end of my previous posting, then by all means we can talk about that. Short of that Have a good day Joe...I am not going to take your continued baiting.

J, I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to keep a sense of humor with your replies. Your upset over nothing. That's not an attack, but an observation.

You jumped into this j. No one invited you.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

J, I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to keep a sense of humor with your replies. Your upset over nothing. That's not an attack, but an observation.

You jumped into this j. No one invited you.

It's a simple question Joe....Do you think it is a smart move for demo's to formulate the convoluted argument that being unemployed is a blessing?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

It's a simple question Joe....Do you think it is a smart move for demo's to formulate the convoluted argument that being unemployed is a blessing?

1) it's not convoluted. It's the same thing Ryan said we needed. We knew baby boomers are nearing retirement. That many work for no other reason than insurance. The CBO makes this distinction rather well.

2) insurance should not be the reason anyone works. Pay, salary, that should be the motivation and not insurance.


All I've said us be honest about what it us. It's not a job killer, and the CBO made that clear.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

1) it's not convoluted. It's the same thing Ryan said we needed. We knew baby boomers are nearing retirement. That many work for no other reason than insurance. The CBO makes this distinction rather well.

2) insurance should not be the reason anyone works. Pay, salary, that should be the motivation and not insurance.


All I've said us be honest about what it us. It's not a job killer, and the CBO made that clear.

1.) It is convoluted....As someone who grew up with the premise that a good education, hard work, and ability to achieve would allow you to achieve the American dream, this meme of 'it's a good thing to give up that job so you can live off others in society' is bunk.

2.) Insurance wasn't even a consideration en mass before the 60s...Before that people paid for the services they got at the doctors office. Most people carried 'catastrophic' coverage, but that was cheaper. And that kept prices down as well.

I am being honest about what I see. Can you imagine if say car insurance was considered a right? And it covered standard maintenance like oil changes, and tires and such? People would do the same thing they have done in the Medical side which is abuse the system....As far as the CBO goes, they have NOT made anything clear. They actually said that employees will consider lowering their hours worked to compensate for taxation rates, and subsidy rates that will be higher for tax, and lower for subsidy the more you work, so at the very least the ACA is causing a decrease in productivity. The spin is that demo's are saying this is a good thing....I don't see how. It is telling people to work less to get the subsidy, and let someone else pay for it...

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/45010-breakout-AppendixC.pdf
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

1) It is convoluted....As someone who grew up with the premise that a good education, hard work, and ability to achieve would allow you to achieve the American dream, this meme of 'it's a good thing to give up that job so you can live off others in society' is bunk.

No one is disputing those things, and has nothing to do with this argument. They all worked, but reached a point that the dream was there for them, only to have to keep working due to need of insurance. No one should have a dream postponed until they get on medicare. I think there is a misunderstanding here as to what was said. Ryan would not have supported this, before he was against it, if what you propose was an accurate depiction of the situation. That's why I bring him up.

2.) Insurance wasn't even a consideration en mass before the 60s...Before that people paid for the services they got at the doctors office. Most people carried 'catastrophic' coverage, but that was cheaper. And that kept prices down as well.

Which again doesn't matter. Today insurance is needed. We can't go back to the 50's. Doctors no longer trade service for produce. Technology has grown to be huge. We don't care for people in our homes any more. People have to deal with the realities of today, and today, you better have insurance.

I am being honest about what I see. Can you imagine if say car insurance was considered a right? And it covered standard maintenance like oil changes, and tires and such? People would do the same thing they have done in the Medical side which is abuse the system....As far as the CBO goes, they have NOT made anything clear. They actually said that employees will consider lowering their hours worked to compensate for taxation rates, and subsidy rates that will be higher for tax, and lower for subsidy the more you work, so at the very least the ACA is causing a decrease in productivity. The spin is that demo's are saying this is a good thing....I don't see how. It is telling people to work less to get the subsidy, and let someone else pay for it...

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/45010-breakout-AppendixC.pdf

Ive never used the word right. I don't thinking having community fire fighters is a right. But we do use tax dollars for them.

And yes, the CBO said directly, under oath, this was not a jobs killer. Made clear the distinction between the person being fired and the person who now doesn't have to worry about insurance, so they can pursue other endeavors. As for a decrease in productivity, and different argument, you have many factors involved in that, including as the CBO points out in another report, baby boomers leaving the work force, as expected.

And no one is telling anyone to work less. An insurance subsidy doesn't make up for a reduced salary if they need the money. So, I think there is a lot of reading into the report what isn't really there.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

No one is disputing those things, and has nothing to do with this argument. They all worked, but reached a point that the dream was there for them, only to have to keep working due to need of insurance. No one should have a dream postponed until they get on medicare. I think there is a misunderstanding here as to what was said. Ryan would not have supported this, before he was against it, if what you propose was an accurate depiction of the situation. That's why I bring him up.


Aw poor babies.....You mean to tell me that life isn't a bowl of cherries? And I'll tell you when Paul Ryan speaks for me...mmmmmk?

Which again doesn't matter. Today insurance is needed. We can't go back to the 50's. Doctors no longer trade service for produce. Technology has grown to be huge. We don't care for people in our homes any more. People have to deal with the realities of today, and today, you better have insurance.

Fine...But what is the origin of my debt to another to pay for their HC?

Ive never used the word right. I don't thinking having community fire fighters is a right. But we do use tax dollars for them.

And yes, the CBO said directly, under oath, this was not a jobs killer. Made clear the distinction between the person being fired and the person who now doesn't have to worry about insurance, so they can pursue other endeavors. As for a decrease in productivity, and different argument, you have many factors involved in that, including as the CBO points out in another report, baby boomers leaving the work force, as expected.

And no one is telling anyone to work less. An insurance subsidy doesn't make up for a reduced salary if they need the money. So, I think there is a lot of reading into the report what isn't really there.

And I completely disagree....That doesn't make you right or me wrong, or vice versa....It just means we have different views..
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Aw poor babies.....You mean to tell me that life isn't a bowl of cherries? And I'll tell you when Paul Ryan speaks for me...mmmmmk?

Not sure how you expect me to respond to this. It makes no sense in relation to my comment.


Fine...But what is the origin of my debt to another to pay for their HC?

Why does one pay for another to have their fire fought? Or to have another driver insured? The reasoning is the same.


And I completely disagree....That doesn't make you right or me wrong, or vice versa....It just means we have different views..

To a degree that's true. But the CBO was asked if it were a job killer, and he did answer. he said no. That makes his answer a fact. It is his answer. I tend to believe he knows a little more than I do. Just a little. (that's a joke).
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Not sure how you expect me to respond to this. It makes no sense in relation to my comment.

It was rhetorical, it needed no response.

Why does one pay for another to have their fire fought? Or to have another driver insured? The reasoning is the same.

That might make sense if the health care industry were government employees. But this is a private industry, and Obama swears up and down that this isn't top down, command control of the industry, yet you treat it as though it were....How does that square?

To a degree that's true. But the CBO was asked if it were a job killer, and he did answer. he said no. That makes his answer a fact. It is his answer. I tend to believe he knows a little more than I do. Just a little. (that's a joke).

I caught it....:) however, the CBO uses parameters it is provided by certain congressmen and women to come up with their conclusions. Therefore, if you have a group of democrats providing the parameters, and leaving out certain aspects that would show the whole picture then you don't have a fact, you only have an answer they wanted to hear. As a separate question though, how often I wonder, with CBO projections, are they correct as time goes on, or do they constantly have to adjust, and recalculate?
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

It was rhetorical, it needed no response.



That might make sense if the health care industry were government employees. But this is a private industry, and Obama swears up and down that this isn't top down, command control of the industry, yet you treat it as though it were....How does that square?



I caught it....:) however, the CBO uses parameters it is provided by certain congressmen and women to come up with their conclusions. Therefore, if you have a group of democrats providing the parameters, and leaving out certain aspects that would show the whole picture then you don't have a fact, you only have an answer they wanted to hear. As a separate question though, how often I wonder, with CBO projections, are they correct as time goes on, or do they constantly have to adjust, and recalculate?

They don't have to be government employees for it to make sense. The logic is the same. The only question is how we handle it. Nor dies he have to control the industry. We have private police and private fire fighting companies. If you look at the varied universal payers, you'll see there us no need fir control. And here it would definitely be two tiered.

But that's really another topic.

Parameters had nothing to do with. He was asked a direct question that parameters would change the answer to.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Parameters had nothing to do with. He was asked a direct question that parameters would change the answer to.

It is how the CBO operates, surely you know that. The same argument will be coming from you when the repubs take Senate in Nov. The CBO generally is good for backing up a claim if you want to come up with talking points, little more.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

It is how the CBO operates, surely you know that. The same argument will be coming from you when the repubs take Senate in Nov. The CBO generally is good for backing up a claim if you want to come up with talking points, little more.

I know how they opporate. But there is no possible set of parameters that would negate his answer. As I said, it was a very direct question, with a clear and direct answer.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

I know how they opporate. But there is no possible set of parameters that would negate his answer. As I said, it was a very direct question, with a clear and direct answer.

Then he was lying....Maybe he didn't want another strong arm meeting in the Oval Office like when Obama first got started.
 
Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

Then he was lying....Maybe he didn't want another strong arm meeting in the Oval Office like when Obama first got started.

Well, that's a leap. Can you not conceive of the possibility that you may be wrong? It happens to all of us. He testified before congress. Answered a direct question. Gave a clear and unambiguous answer. Isn't it just possible he is telling it as he sees it?
 
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