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Thread: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinner

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, that's a leap. Can you not conceive of the possibility that you may be wrong? It happens to all of us. He testified before congress. Answered a direct question. Gave a clear and unambiguous answer. Isn't it just possible he is telling it as he sees it?
    Maybe it is a leap, but I'd like to think not...Progressive policies are killing this country piece by piece, as I look around I see downtown half closed, I drive and see shopping plaza's still shuttered, I talk to other friends in the transportation field and hear how hard it is to get loads, and I watch the news and hear how the US only created some 77,000 jobs last month, but yet the UE rate went down a tick because another half million dropped out of the work force, and it's trumpeted as not only good news, but a recovery.

    Then I look at what you are saying about the CBO, and the ACA and I see that the original estimate of cost was below a trillion, coming in at $780 Billion according to who else, the CBO, now that has tripled. I saw the CBO estimate the Stimilus which came in at twice what they estimated. So, I look up how they operate, and how any entity that can be wrong every time they estimate something still is looked to when the rhetoric starts flying, and I find this:

    “Everyone should know that any number will be either too high or too low,” Donald Marron, a former CBO deputy director told The Daily Caller.

    There are a number of problems associated with CBO’s estimates. Some have to do with the games Congress itself plays with numbers. In the case of highly complex programs like health care, a myriad of variables can throw estimates off. In fact, the government’s track record for estimating health-care program costs is poor.



    Read more: Congressional Budget Office consistently wrong on health-care estimates | The Daily Caller
    and this

    Economic forecasts are useful, writes Len Burman, but you have to account for the fact that they’re usually wrong:
    The forecasts are usually off the mark, sometimes by quite a lot. Most recently, CBO forecast 2.3 percent average annual growth for 2008 and 2009. It turned out that the economy contracted by an average of 1 percent per year. The Blue-Chip forecasters similarly underestimated the depth of the recession, which was a factor in the underpowered economic stimulus measures enacted to try to combat the downturn. Everyone also underestimated the expansion of the economy in the 1990s.

    Economic forecasts: Useful, but almost always wrong - The Washington Post
    Then I have you in here telling me that you'd rather put your trust in the CBO because you say they know more than you do on the particular subject, yet I am giving you not only two people above one of which a former deputy director of the CBO, saying that they are most often wrong in their estimates for the exact reasons I gave you and you ask me if I ever considered that I may be wrong? Well, Of course I do often. Any rational person with a smidgen of intelligence has to ponder that question, but on this? Absolutely not.

    You can tout the CBO from here until the cows come home, and when it plays out we will find that the report that you push today on page one, will be adjusted in the future on page 26, and we won't hear a peep of how you were wrong now....So you'll excuse me if not only myself, but a majority of Americans are just not trusting Obama at present, or anyone associated with him.

    As for Elmendorf telling it as he sees it, just remember the old computer axiom...."Junk in - Junk out!"
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    [QUOTE=j-mac;1062967362]
    Maybe it is a leap, but I'd like to think not...Progressive policies are killing this country piece by piece, as I look around I see downtown half closed, I drive and see shopping plaza's still shuttered, I talk to other friends in the transportation field and hear how hard it is to get loads, and I watch the news and hear how the US only created some 77,000 jobs last month, but yet the UE rate went down a tick because another half million dropped out of the work force, and it's trumpeted as not only good news, but a recovery.

    Then I look at what you are saying about the CBO, and the ACA and I see that the original estimate of cost was below a trillion, coming in at $780 Billion according to who else, the CBO, now that has tripled. I saw the CBO estimate the Stimilus which came in at twice what they estimated. So, I look up how they operate, and how any entity that can be wrong every time they estimate something still is looked to when the rhetoric starts flying, and I find this:
    I don't know what country you're living in, but the country is not being killed. Urban sprawl is changing the landscape, and outsourcing has had an effect, but these having little to do with either liberal or conservative. Hacks just try to make you think it does. I can get someone overseas to work for pennies, and not have to provide healthcare because their government has UHC. That's a huge draw for companies. And as we believe in the bottom line, we can only applaud them as they leave. Because the American dream is to work for a buck fifty an hour and die in a preventable fire due to unsafe working conditions. Yes, that was sarcasm, but meant to illustrate a point. There is a trade off for everything. Everything.



    Then I have you in here telling me that you'd rather put your trust in the CBO because you say they know more than you do on the particular subject, yet I am giving you not only two people above one of which a former deputy director of the CBO, saying that they are most often wrong in their estimates for the exact reasons I gave you and you ask me if I ever considered that I may be wrong? Well, Of course I do often. Any rational person with a smidgen of intelligence has to ponder that question, but on this? Absolutely not.

    You can tout the CBO from here until the cows come home, and when it plays out we will find that the report that you push today on page one, will be adjusted in the future on page 26, and we won't hear a peep of how you were wrong now....So you'll excuse me if not only myself, but a majority of Americans are just not trusting Obama at present, or anyone associated with him.

    As for Elmendorf telling it as he sees it, just remember the old computer axiom...."Junk in - Junk out!"
    I laugh at how valid the CBO was when you thought it said what you agreed with. This is too common for both sides. But, the fact is we're first dealing with what was actually said. Once we agree on that, then we can talk about what others say.

    However, if a person will never be convinced no matter the evidence, that person will never be convinced. I admit that the notion of pointing to what was going on before reform as evidence of reform being bad is unconvincing to me. How could it be the cause before it was even enacted? Decades before even proposed? It does confuse me how any logical person can make the argument. Cause and effect is difficult under the best of situations, but to claim cause for something that started so long before hand seems like an impossible case to make.

    But the point here is there is no real reason for employers to lay people off, and no evidence that in any significant numbers that are. Maybe one day there will be, but it hasn't happened yet. And then to show ACA is the cause? You need more than someone's testimony. You need something measurable, verifiable.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    I don't know what country you're living in, but the country is not being killed. Urban sprawl is changing the landscape, and outsourcing has had an effect, but these having little to do with either liberal or conservative. Hacks just try to make you think it does. I can get someone overseas to work for pennies, and not have to provide healthcare because their government has UHC. That's a huge draw for companies. And as we believe in the bottom line, we can only applaud them as they leave. Because the American dream is to work for a buck fifty an hour and die in a preventable fire due to unsafe working conditions. Yes, that was sarcasm, but meant to illustrate a point. There is a trade off for everything. Everything.
    Yes, yes...It is always some other excuse, because it could NEVER be a policy, or piece of legislation rammed through without thinking through the unintended consequences that cause any pain, just dump opposition conservatives that won't go along with destructive liberal ideas that is the problem...Good grief, talk about a victim mentality.

    I laugh at how valid the CBO was when you thought it said what you agreed with.
    Which is exactly what you are doing here....So the laugh is on you Joe.

    This is too common for both sides.
    Yep, and you are the one doing it now.

    But, the fact is we're first dealing with what was actually said. Once we agree on that, then we can talk about what others say.
    Well, deal with that rather than your opinion of what is said...Spinning the job loss, and new taxation for your own political argument, then turning as you do here and giving an ultimatum that I need agree with you or we can not consider factual statements from two different sources if a non starter. Either debate, or don't, I don't care but when you do this you just look silly.

    However, if a person will never be convinced no matter the evidence, that person will never be convinced. I admit that the notion of pointing to what was going on before reform as evidence of reform being bad is unconvincing to me. How could it be the cause before it was even enacted? Decades before even proposed? It does confuse me how any logical person can make the argument. Cause and effect is difficult under the best of situations, but to claim cause for something that started so long before hand seems like an impossible case to make.
    Maybe you could be a bit more coherent here, I have no idea what you are talking about.

    But the point here is there is no real reason for employers to lay people off, and no evidence that in any significant numbers that are. Maybe one day there will be, but it hasn't happened yet. And then to show ACA is the cause? You need more than someone's testimony. You need something measurable, verifiable.
    Why is it that liberals must wait until the destruction is complete before they do anything about it, if even then? We don't need to wait until the ACA bankrupts America before we recognize it is a failed law out of the gates do we?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yes, yes...It is always some other excuse, because it could NEVER be a policy, or piece of legislation rammed through without thinking through the unintended consequences that cause any pain, just dump opposition conservatives that won't go along with destructive liberal ideas that is the problem...Good grief, talk about a victim mentality.
    Getting a little breaky here. This is usually when points get lost and tangents start.

    But, we have many policies and factors. And many relate to outsourcing. I listed a few. The more critical ones I think. But here again, your response seem emotional and not a response to what was said. I don't mean to insult at all, but I want to respond with reasoning and not just say something silly back.


    Which is exactly what you are doing here....So the laugh is on you Joe.
    No, I'm clarifying what was actually said. We haven't gotten beyond that yet.



    Well, deal with that rather than your opinion of what is said...Spinning the job loss, and new taxation for your own political argument, then turning as you do here and giving an ultimatum that I need agree with you or we can not consider factual statements from two different sources if a non starter. Either debate, or don't, I don't care but when you do this you just look silly.
    Again, I report exactly what he said. He said in plain English that he was not painting it as a job Killer. And he stated why. I've given no spin. Just what he actually said.

    Maybe you could be a bit more coherent here, I have no idea what you are talking about.
    Not sure what you don't understand. Much of what people put on ACA was happening before ACA. Jobs were moving to part time. Insurance premiums were rising. Companies were outsourcing. All before ACA. So logically, how do you blame ACA?

    Why is it that liberals must wait until the destruction is complete before they do anything about it, if even then? We don't need to wait until the ACA bankrupts America before we recognize it is a failed law out of the gates do we?
    Well, I don't speak for liberals. I only speak for myself. But I think decisions should be based on evidence and not ideology. Not misreadings of what was said. Not partisan hyperbole. Not misinformation. But actual evidence. Do you think I'm wrong for that?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Getting a little breaky here. This is usually when points get lost and tangents start.
    You started by breaking my response apart. But sometimes things need to be addressed separately..

    No, I'm clarifying what was actually said. We haven't gotten beyond that yet.
    Oh, I think we have...You think what he said was absolute gospel, and I think it is not based on all the factors, or he is lying, one of the two...What else do we have to clarify?

    Again, I report exactly what he said. He said in plain English that he was not painting it as a job Killer. And he stated why. I've given no spin. Just what he actually said.
    And I say that is spin, either by Elmendorf, or by the media, I don't care which...The bottom line is that at the end of the time period the result in plain english is that it will result in 2.5 million less jobs. Whether that is on the company laying people off, or a aggregate of reduced hours worked, it is a loss in productivity, and a shrinkage of the workforce period. Spin it how you want.

    Not sure what you don't understand. Much of what people put on ACA was happening before ACA. Jobs were moving to part time. Insurance premiums were rising. Companies were outsourcing. All before ACA. So logically, how do you blame ACA?
    And the only way to attempt to reverse that trend was to ram through a 2800 page law that many don't understand, full of new taxes, and regulations? I don't buy it.

    Well, I don't speak for liberals. I only speak for myself. But I think decisions should be based on evidence and not ideology. Not misreadings of what was said. Not partisan hyperbole. Not misinformation. But actual evidence. Do you think I'm wrong for that?
    And I prefer to monitor things as they go, and fix what we clearly see happening before it becomes a total disaster. But, I understand that the theory of Cloward/Piven which I believe is what is being done here, is not how liberals like you Joe want things to go....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You started by breaking my response apart. But sometimes things need to be addressed separately..
    Two not more.

    Oh, I think we have...You think what he said was absolute gospel, and I think it is not based on all the factors, or he is lying, one of the two...What else do we have to clarify?
    You don't seem to accept that the CBO said it wasn't a job killer. Just said he did and we'll move on.



    And I say that is spin, either by Elmendorf, or by the media, I don't care which...The bottom line is that at the end of the time period the result in plain english is that it will result in 2.5 million less jobs. Whether that is on the company laying people off, or a aggregate of reduced hours worked, it is a loss in productivity, and a shrinkage of the workforce period. Spin it how you want.
    Of course you do. But admit he said it. Voluntarily less people, not jobs. He also stated it would open up opportunity for others.



    And the only way to attempt to reverse that trend was to ram through a 2800 page law that many don't understand, full of new taxes, and regulations? I don't buy it.
    I'm not sure ACA was to address that. It was to increase access and cut costs. We don't know about either yet.


    And I prefer to monitor things as they go, and fix what we clearly see happening before it becomes a total disaster. But, I understand that the theory of Cloward/Piven which I believe is what is being done here, is not how liberals like you Joe want things to go....
    You remind me of the comma usage. Some believe we use a comma when we hear a pause. the problem is that can't be right. It can't be right because we all hear a different place. What is clear to me, is not to you. What is clear to you is not to me. And with everyone else.

    As for the other, don't you think you're a little paranoid? I could counter with the theory that republicans can't govern which is why they try to make sure it breaks down. What do you think can be gained by this hyper-partisan nonsense?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Two not more.



    You don't seem to accept that the CBO said it wasn't a job killer. Just said he did and we'll move on.





    Of course you do. But admit he said it. Voluntarily less people, not jobs. He also stated it would open up opportunity for others.





    I'm not sure ACA was to address that. It was to increase access and cut costs. We don't know about either yet.




    You remind me of the comma usage. Some believe we use a comma when we hear a pause. the problem is that can't be right. It can't be right because we all hear a different place. What is clear to me, is not to you. What is clear to you is not to me. And with everyone else.

    As for the other, don't you think you're a little paranoid? I could counter with the theory that republicans can't govern which is why they try to make sure it breaks down. What do you think can be gained by this hyper-partisan nonsense?
    Look, all I know is that there has been nothing honest about this ACA from the start. Numbers manipulation is only a small part of the cynical approach liberals take in this. Just today they are out there touting a 4 million number as though all these people have paid for their plans, but they won't say how many have actually paid, so the number they give is meaningless.

    I think if the truth were known about what is going on here American's would be outraged at the wanton destruction going on, and passed off with lies.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Look, all I know is that there has been nothing honest about this ACA from the start. Numbers manipulation is only a small part of the cynical approach liberals take in this. Just today they are out there touting a 4 million number as though all these people have paid for their plans, but they won't say how many have actually paid, so the number they give is meaningless.

    I think if the truth were known about what is going on here American's would be outraged at the wanton destruction going on, and passed off with lies.
    J anyone who goes down the liberals are evil or the conservatives are evil clearly has a skewed view. It's hard to maintain a civil conversation with that type of hyperbole.

    But I will try.

    Thus issue gas always been steeped in dishonesty from both sides. From wanting to kill granny to being socialist fascist communists. Remember Harry and Louise? As dishonest an attack as there ever was. In comparison, as contentious as this has been, at least something moved forward.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    J anyone who goes down the liberals are evil or the conservatives are evil clearly has a skewed view. It's hard to maintain a civil conversation with that type of hyperbole.

    But I will try.

    Thus issue gas always been steeped in dishonesty from both sides. From wanting to kill granny to being socialist fascist communists. Remember Harry and Louise? As dishonest an attack as there ever was. In comparison, as contentious as this has been, at least something moved forward.
    Along straight party lines.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Along straight party lines.
    Well, at least we have you to say liberals are evil. Now that's thinking outside the partisan box for you.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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