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Thread: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinner

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    1) it's not convoluted. It's the same thing Ryan said we needed. We knew baby boomers are nearing retirement. That many work for no other reason than insurance. The CBO makes this distinction rather well.

    2) insurance should not be the reason anyone works. Pay, salary, that should be the motivation and not insurance.


    All I've said us be honest about what it us. It's not a job killer, and the CBO made that clear.
    1.) It is convoluted....As someone who grew up with the premise that a good education, hard work, and ability to achieve would allow you to achieve the American dream, this meme of 'it's a good thing to give up that job so you can live off others in society' is bunk.

    2.) Insurance wasn't even a consideration en mass before the 60s...Before that people paid for the services they got at the doctors office. Most people carried 'catastrophic' coverage, but that was cheaper. And that kept prices down as well.

    I am being honest about what I see. Can you imagine if say car insurance was considered a right? And it covered standard maintenance like oil changes, and tires and such? People would do the same thing they have done in the Medical side which is abuse the system....As far as the CBO goes, they have NOT made anything clear. They actually said that employees will consider lowering their hours worked to compensate for taxation rates, and subsidy rates that will be higher for tax, and lower for subsidy the more you work, so at the very least the ACA is causing a decrease in productivity. The spin is that demo's are saying this is a good thing....I don't see how. It is telling people to work less to get the subsidy, and let someone else pay for it...

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...-AppendixC.pdf
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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    1) It is convoluted....As someone who grew up with the premise that a good education, hard work, and ability to achieve would allow you to achieve the American dream, this meme of 'it's a good thing to give up that job so you can live off others in society' is bunk.
    No one is disputing those things, and has nothing to do with this argument. They all worked, but reached a point that the dream was there for them, only to have to keep working due to need of insurance. No one should have a dream postponed until they get on medicare. I think there is a misunderstanding here as to what was said. Ryan would not have supported this, before he was against it, if what you propose was an accurate depiction of the situation. That's why I bring him up.

    2.) Insurance wasn't even a consideration en mass before the 60s...Before that people paid for the services they got at the doctors office. Most people carried 'catastrophic' coverage, but that was cheaper. And that kept prices down as well.
    Which again doesn't matter. Today insurance is needed. We can't go back to the 50's. Doctors no longer trade service for produce. Technology has grown to be huge. We don't care for people in our homes any more. People have to deal with the realities of today, and today, you better have insurance.

    I am being honest about what I see. Can you imagine if say car insurance was considered a right? And it covered standard maintenance like oil changes, and tires and such? People would do the same thing they have done in the Medical side which is abuse the system....As far as the CBO goes, they have NOT made anything clear. They actually said that employees will consider lowering their hours worked to compensate for taxation rates, and subsidy rates that will be higher for tax, and lower for subsidy the more you work, so at the very least the ACA is causing a decrease in productivity. The spin is that demo's are saying this is a good thing....I don't see how. It is telling people to work less to get the subsidy, and let someone else pay for it...

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...-AppendixC.pdf
    Ive never used the word right. I don't thinking having community fire fighters is a right. But we do use tax dollars for them.

    And yes, the CBO said directly, under oath, this was not a jobs killer. Made clear the distinction between the person being fired and the person who now doesn't have to worry about insurance, so they can pursue other endeavors. As for a decrease in productivity, and different argument, you have many factors involved in that, including as the CBO points out in another report, baby boomers leaving the work force, as expected.

    And no one is telling anyone to work less. An insurance subsidy doesn't make up for a reduced salary if they need the money. So, I think there is a lot of reading into the report what isn't really there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No one is disputing those things, and has nothing to do with this argument. They all worked, but reached a point that the dream was there for them, only to have to keep working due to need of insurance. No one should have a dream postponed until they get on medicare. I think there is a misunderstanding here as to what was said. Ryan would not have supported this, before he was against it, if what you propose was an accurate depiction of the situation. That's why I bring him up.

    Aw poor babies.....You mean to tell me that life isn't a bowl of cherries? And I'll tell you when Paul Ryan speaks for me...mmmmmk?

    Which again doesn't matter. Today insurance is needed. We can't go back to the 50's. Doctors no longer trade service for produce. Technology has grown to be huge. We don't care for people in our homes any more. People have to deal with the realities of today, and today, you better have insurance.
    Fine...But what is the origin of my debt to another to pay for their HC?

    Ive never used the word right. I don't thinking having community fire fighters is a right. But we do use tax dollars for them.

    And yes, the CBO said directly, under oath, this was not a jobs killer. Made clear the distinction between the person being fired and the person who now doesn't have to worry about insurance, so they can pursue other endeavors. As for a decrease in productivity, and different argument, you have many factors involved in that, including as the CBO points out in another report, baby boomers leaving the work force, as expected.

    And no one is telling anyone to work less. An insurance subsidy doesn't make up for a reduced salary if they need the money. So, I think there is a lot of reading into the report what isn't really there.
    And I completely disagree....That doesn't make you right or me wrong, or vice versa....It just means we have different views..
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Aw poor babies.....You mean to tell me that life isn't a bowl of cherries? And I'll tell you when Paul Ryan speaks for me...mmmmmk?
    Not sure how you expect me to respond to this. It makes no sense in relation to my comment.


    Fine...But what is the origin of my debt to another to pay for their HC?
    Why does one pay for another to have their fire fought? Or to have another driver insured? The reasoning is the same.


    And I completely disagree....That doesn't make you right or me wrong, or vice versa....It just means we have different views..
    To a degree that's true. But the CBO was asked if it were a job killer, and he did answer. he said no. That makes his answer a fact. It is his answer. I tend to believe he knows a little more than I do. Just a little. (that's a joke).

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not sure how you expect me to respond to this. It makes no sense in relation to my comment.
    It was rhetorical, it needed no response.

    Why does one pay for another to have their fire fought? Or to have another driver insured? The reasoning is the same.
    That might make sense if the health care industry were government employees. But this is a private industry, and Obama swears up and down that this isn't top down, command control of the industry, yet you treat it as though it were....How does that square?

    To a degree that's true. But the CBO was asked if it were a job killer, and he did answer. he said no. That makes his answer a fact. It is his answer. I tend to believe he knows a little more than I do. Just a little. (that's a joke).
    I caught it.... however, the CBO uses parameters it is provided by certain congressmen and women to come up with their conclusions. Therefore, if you have a group of democrats providing the parameters, and leaving out certain aspects that would show the whole picture then you don't have a fact, you only have an answer they wanted to hear. As a separate question though, how often I wonder, with CBO projections, are they correct as time goes on, or do they constantly have to adjust, and recalculate?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It was rhetorical, it needed no response.



    That might make sense if the health care industry were government employees. But this is a private industry, and Obama swears up and down that this isn't top down, command control of the industry, yet you treat it as though it were....How does that square?



    I caught it.... however, the CBO uses parameters it is provided by certain congressmen and women to come up with their conclusions. Therefore, if you have a group of democrats providing the parameters, and leaving out certain aspects that would show the whole picture then you don't have a fact, you only have an answer they wanted to hear. As a separate question though, how often I wonder, with CBO projections, are they correct as time goes on, or do they constantly have to adjust, and recalculate?
    They don't have to be government employees for it to make sense. The logic is the same. The only question is how we handle it. Nor dies he have to control the industry. We have private police and private fire fighting companies. If you look at the varied universal payers, you'll see there us no need fir control. And here it would definitely be two tiered.

    But that's really another topic.

    Parameters had nothing to do with. He was asked a direct question that parameters would change the answer to.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Parameters had nothing to do with. He was asked a direct question that parameters would change the answer to.
    It is how the CBO operates, surely you know that. The same argument will be coming from you when the repubs take Senate in Nov. The CBO generally is good for backing up a claim if you want to come up with talking points, little more.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It is how the CBO operates, surely you know that. The same argument will be coming from you when the repubs take Senate in Nov. The CBO generally is good for backing up a claim if you want to come up with talking points, little more.
    I know how they opporate. But there is no possible set of parameters that would negate his answer. As I said, it was a very direct question, with a clear and direct answer.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I know how they opporate. But there is no possible set of parameters that would negate his answer. As I said, it was a very direct question, with a clear and direct answer.
    Then he was lying....Maybe he didn't want another strong arm meeting in the Oval Office like when Obama first got started.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Rep. Keith Ellison on ObamaCare-Job Losses: More Time for Americans to Cook Dinne

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Then he was lying....Maybe he didn't want another strong arm meeting in the Oval Office like when Obama first got started.
    Well, that's a leap. Can you not conceive of the possibility that you may be wrong? It happens to all of us. He testified before congress. Answered a direct question. Gave a clear and unambiguous answer. Isn't it just possible he is telling it as he sees it?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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