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Thread: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    Cuba and North Korea are the last two countries on Earth where you cannot buy Coca-Cola.
    So much for my Cuba libre idea.
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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    I'd trade Obama for a couple of Cuban cigars. Seems fair enough.

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The major difference I was referring to was that in one case it was third party property. In the other case it was the oppressor's ill gained treasure.
    And I'm arguing that property in both cases was ill gotten due to the subjugation of the country by the U.S from the Spanish american war onwards. How much of this property came as a direct result of American occupation following the war and U.S relations with Batista?

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    And I'm arguing that property in both cases was ill gotten due to the subjugation of the country by the U.S from the Spanish american war onwards. How much of this property came as a direct result of American occupation following the war and U.S relations with Batista?
    That would be a good one for the courts. Was Batista the rightful leader or not? I do not think that you would be able to make the argument that the US had been a colonial master in the European sense during the 1940s and 50s. While it might have been quasi legal to disposes nationals after the revolution Castro's property grab of third nation assets was not.

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    The EU has opened up bilateral negotiations with Cuba, as of yesterday.
    Not sure why this would be relevant to the US - it's not as if Cuba has anything economically that the US needs and/or will lose to the EU - Cuba is piss-poor and not about to become some economic juggernaut that the US will miss out on.


    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    I doubt that Cubans will be allowed to leave Cuban soil anytime soon. Besides we have normal relations with Haiti, Guatemala, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic. Do we see an abnormally lower level of illegal immigrants coming through the US boarder and on rafts from those countries? Genuine question. Last I checked, I don't see large masses of illegal immigrants from Latin American and Caribbean countries making it through US Customs in our airports.
    If Cuba is going to continue to ignore the human rights and freedom of movement of the Cuban people, why would the US normalize relations with them - does the US have normalized relations with North Korea, another society where its citizens aren't allowed to leave, as an example? The others you mention aren't in the same situation and aren't mere "swimming distance" from the Florida coast.


    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    Aussies as well. I'm globalized enough to have been invited to vacation in Havana before by non-American friends who didn't know that these travel restrictions existed for American citizens. And well, these types of uncomfortable conditions exist in almost all Caribbean and Latin American countries. That's why resorts exist. :P
    So, as noted, there's nothing that Cuba offers that isn't available on dozens of other Caribbean islands and in Latin America - proving again that Cuba needs the US far more than the US needs Cuba.


    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    Raul Castro has made it well known that he's willing to sit down with the US. I also don't see the point of demanding an apology from Cuba. What exactly is that going to solve or prove? That the US government is filled with dopes who hold grudges for a really, really long time?
    Cuba doesn't need to apologize to the US - it needs to apologize to its own people and the apology should come in the form of human rights protections, the opening of political prisons, and the granting of freedom of movement. Once Cuba makes meaningful movement towards a free and democratic society, then they may have something to offer the US.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    This isn't much of a surprise poll if you are politically attuned. I haven’t the slightest of ideas why we still have trade embargoes and travel restrictions on Cuba. Although I'm certain that we might be able to tease out some DP posters who believe this is a bad idea.

    My only concern is - as the NYT article mentions - human rights in Cuba. Yetl I find it strange that anyone would believe that the US (and Cubans) is better at increasing respect for human rights by isolating the Cuba. All that type [of diplomacy] achieves is an echo chamber for the Cuban government. Free trade, American tourist dollars and free movement are much better at spreading ideas and (given Cuban censorship) sharing restricted materials deemed to be dangerous.

    Moreover, I'm jealous that only the Chinese and Venezuelans are able to sit on Cuban beaches sipping piña coladas.
    The Castros are assholes and they're not to be trusted. Remember these clowns are still loyal to every communist nation in the world and at times are the perfect puppet for these communist nations...

    IMO, Cuba will have to extend its hand first to have any diplomatic discussions and possible trade agreements.

    Remember back in 1980 when Castro had so many prisoners both political and criminal that he emptied his prisons and threw them all in banana boats and gave them directions to Miami?

    Oh and lets not forget how he allowed the USSR to stockpile nuclear weapons in Cuba (the Cuban Missile Crisis)

    Then of course he aided and funded communist gorillas in South America...

    So it's not exactly like Cuba is some sort of "victim."

    Prior to Casto's coup in 1959 Cuba as a wonderful vacation spot for US citizens or citizens all over the world - then Castro turned Cuba into an authoritarian communist third world **** hole....

    The Castro bro's would double cross the United States in a nanosecond to boot.

    What the US should have done was to invade Cuba, get rid of Castro and return Cuba to the exotic and wonderful destination it was pre 1959.

    IMO, if that whole Castro/Guevara "revolution" bull**** never went down - I think today Cuba would be a republic of the US if not a state.

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Then of course he aided and funded communist gorillas in South America...

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Ok, that was a good laugh...

    Maybe I should have said "communist revolutionaries" lol

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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    The EU has opened up bilateral negotiations with Cuba, as of yesterday.
    Not sure why this would be relevant to the US - it's not as if Cuba has anything economically that the US needs and/or will lose to the EU - Cuba is piss-poor and not about to become some economic juggernaut that the US will miss out on.
    I'm very skeptical of this argument of yours. When has the US ever wanted to miss an opportunity, however small? It's a country 90 miles away that's near to massive American ports and has a population of 11 million people, who have hundred of thousands of their relatives living within our country. We've got great leverage and opportunity in Cuba that most other countries simply do not have.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If Cuba is going to continue to ignore the human rights and freedom of movement of the Cuban people, why would the US normalize relations with them - does the US have normalized relations with North Korea, another society where its citizens aren't allowed to leave, as an example? The others you mention aren't in the same situation and aren't mere "swimming distance" from the Florida coast.
    Central African Republic, Egypt, Ukraine, China, Myanmar, Nigeria, Uganda, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Iran.

    All breaking news countries with recent and egregious violations of human rights. How come we don't embargo and isolate them? The only difference is that isolation is not the status quo for these countries; that's only an incredibly limited tradition with Cuba. Quite frankly, in all other circumstances, we in the Western world seek diplomatic solutions within the country. We seek to improve the nation and empower its people through humanitarian aide and foreign investment. I simply am not sold on "isolationism" being the solution for Cuba, when we pursue complete different paths with almost all other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    So, as noted, there's nothing that Cuba offers that isn't available on dozens of other Caribbean islands and in Latin America - proving again that Cuba needs the US far more than the US needs Cuba.
    In terms of nice beaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Cuba doesn't need to apologize to the US - it needs to apologize to its own people and the apology should come in the form of human rights protections, the opening of political prisons, and the granting of freedom of movement. Once Cuba makes meaningful movement towards a free and democratic society, then they may have something to offer the US.
    BAH! What, are you looking for a miracle? I'm about as confident in that as I am in Russia changing its national anthem to Diana Ross' "I'm Coming Out," or China dismantling its one-party state and creating a independent Tibetan state. Democratization and economic liberalization takes time; it's a rare circumstance that a government completely changes its tune and dissolves itself. Not to mention, when that does happen, it usually means flames, riots and general social unrest.

    Cuba is an autocratic echo chamber. It restricts free movement, and its censorship of ideas and "dangerous" material puts China to shame. The EU is doing us liberals in the West a big one, and conditioning their negotiations on human right reforms. With trade and travel restrictions gone, it'd be an absolute boon to the Cuban dissident movement to better share information and ideas among themselves and with the larger world. I believe it is a disappointment that the US cannot bring itself to do the same.
    Last edited by brothern; 02-11-14 at 06:26 PM.
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    Re: Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The Castros are assholes and they're not to be trusted. Remember these clowns are still loyal to every communist nation in the world and at times are the perfect puppet for these communist nations...
    ... which is a grand total of 4. Two of which are "communist" in scare quotes.

    To condense the following's spacing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    IMO, Cuba will have to extend its hand first to have any diplomatic discussions and possible trade agreements. Remember back in 1980 when Castro had so many prisoners both political and criminal that he emptied his prisons and threw them all in banana boats and gave them directions to Miami? Oh and lets not forget how he allowed the USSR to stockpile nuclear weapons in Cuba (the Cuban Missile Crisis) Then of course he aided and funded communist gorillas in South America... So it's not exactly like Cuba is some sort of "victim." Prior to Casto's coup in 1959 Cuba as a wonderful vacation spot for US citizens or citizens all over the world - then Castro turned Cuba into an authoritarian communist third world **** hole.... The Castro bro's would double cross the United States in a nanosecond to boot. What the US should have done was to invade Cuba, get rid of Castro and return Cuba to the exotic and wonderful destination it was pre 1959. IMO, if that whole Castro/Guevara "revolution" bull**** never went down - I think today Cuba would be a republic of the US if not a state.
    The US fought a proxy war in Vietnam, the Russians tried to beat us to the moon and Reagan assailed the Iron Curtain; I don't see how any of that OR Cuba's history has any relevancy to today's current political climate beyond informing us of how to approach Cuba. Castro is [almost literally] on life support and the vast majority of the world has moved on from the Cold War.

    What's done is done, and there's nothing we can do to time travel and "fix it". All of it sorely needs to be relegated to the past's memory, in order to allow us to deal with today's current issues.
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