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Aging America heading for disaster

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Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post

To really understand what’s going on with the American economy, don’t look at the headlines. Don’t look at the unemployment rate or the trade balance or the deficit. Don’t even look at what’s happening today at all: Look at what happened 46 years ago.

And what happened then? Fewer Americas were being born, points out Harry S. Dent Jr. in “The Demographic Cliff: How to Survive and Prosper During the Great Deflation of 2014-2019” (Portfolio).

Following the Baby Boom, which peaked in 1961, came the Baby Bust, a long slow decline in the birthrate. Those babies grew up and began spending in accordance with highly predictable patterns.

People tend, for instance, to buy houses at about the same age — age 31 or so. Around age 53 is when people tend to buy their luxury cars — after the kids have finished college, before old age sets in. Demographics can even tell us when your household spending on potato chips is likely to peak — when the head of it is about 42.

Ultimately the size of the US economy is simply the total of what we’re all spending. Overall household spending hits a high when we’re about 46. So the peak of the Baby Boom (1961) plus 46 suggests that a high point in the US economy should be about 2007, with a long, slow decline to follow for years to come.

Anyone find that convincing?

Dent, a business consultant, stock-market prognosticator and author who says now is the time to sell stocks, has plucked an old argument off the dusty shelves of 1980s political rhetoric (“We’re nothing like Japan! And that’s horrible!”) and given it a new coat of paint: We’re exactly like Japan! And that’s horrible!

Japan’s stock market is still 65% below its 1989 peak. Their spending problem (currently being given a boost by a gigantic stimulus) is really, says Dent, an aging problem.

As the Japanese have hit their 60s and 70s, they became stingier. Artificial, forced spending like government stimulus is not going to spark real voluntary spending because that isn’t what old people do. They’ve already paid for their houses, cars and their children’s schooling. Merchants try to goose lackluster sales by cutting prices, which increases the incentive for people to save their money, expecting things will be cheaper in the future than they are today.

That’s a deflationary spiral, and Dent sees it coming here next, and soon.

Post-crash, the US economy has been limping along for nearly five years despite a series of massive fiscal and monetary stimuli. A principal reason for what growth we have had is the spending pattern of rich people, who tend to put off their big purchases years later in life than the average. Their peak spending year should be, according to Dent, 2014.

And, no, immigration isn’t going to save us; even adjusted for immigration, the overall US population is aging. (Moreover, an anemic economy attracts fewer foreigners: Net new immigration from Mexico dropped to zero between 2005 and 2010).

Lost in the discussion of this week’s Congressional Budget Office report (which said 2.5 million fewer Americans would be working because of Obamacare) was its prediction that aging will be a major drag on growth: “Beyond 2017,” said the report, “CBO expects that economic growth will diminish to a pace that is well below the average seen over the past several decades [due in large part to] slower growth in the labor force because of the aging of the population.”

Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government. The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.
 
Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post



Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government. The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.

While giving consideration to the fact that as the Baby Boomers move from the workforce to retirement, they are contributing less to the programs used in old age, and the up and coming just aren't contributing as much, many Baby Boomers also invested heavily in IRAs and 401Ks and are slowly pulling that money out for their retirement.

While I'm not yet ready for a rocking chair, I've long since removed my money from the markets (IRA) paid my penalty and have invested with post-tax money so the government no longer has control over what I can use or penalize me for not using it correctly. I'll pay my taxes now, while I know what they are, thanks. ;)

I'm not the only one doing it this way. Many who saw the troubles on the horizon do so also, and are being fiscally conservative with their investing. So we take the heat for not propping up a flagging economy.
 
While giving consideration to the fact that as the Baby Boomers move from the workforce to retirement, they are contributing less to the programs used in old age, and the up and coming just aren't contributing as much, many Baby Boomers also invested heavily in IRAs and 401Ks and are slowly pulling that money out for their retirement.

While I'm not yet ready for a rocking chair, I've long since removed my money from the markets (IRA) paid my penalty and have invested with post-tax money so the government no longer has control over what I can use or penalize me for not using it correctly. I'll pay my taxes now, while I know what they are, thanks. ;)

I'm not the only one doing it this way. Many who saw the troubles on the horizon do so also, and are being fiscally conservative with their investing. So we take the heat for not propping up a flagging economy.

I agree, we can't spend like we did in our thirties, when we were still pulling in salaries ($30K) comparable to today's $150K annually. And with this "no interest" policy our savings don't earn any income, nor does risking it in long term stocks and bonds. I'll be damned if I'm going to buy more of the same crap, I don't need. It's one of the reasons, I plan on "no Xmas gifts" next year.
 
Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post



Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government. The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.

Ageism. It has started. You've seen it here on DP and you can expect to see more of in government and media.
 
I agree, we can't spend like we did in our thirties, when we were still pulling in salaries ($30K) comparable to today's $150K annually. And with this "no interest" policy our savings don't earn any income, nor does risking it in long term stocks and bonds. I'll be damned if I'm going to buy more of the same crap, I don't need. It's one of the reasons, I plan on "no Xmas gifts" next year.

Planned obsolescence forces repurchasing of goods, no matter how well you tend to your belongings.

While I too am in that 'no xmas gifts' time of my life, and shedding accumulated stuff, I've found there are still people who have that dear in the headlights look when told that they're plans for their retirement just got shot to hell.

My savings account reaped a whole .004% interest this past year.
 
Ageism. It has started. You've seen it here on DP and you can expect to see more of in government and media.

Take our money, euthanize us and make room for the moronic, spoiled brats. If they'd treat us with respect, we might tell them how to save their sorry asses from financial ruin. We didn't get this old by being stupid. ;)
 
I don't read this as having to do with old people --- old people are the same no matter where you go. It's that we don't have a resurgence of population in the post baby boom years. The birth rate per 1,000 seemed to have peaked in the 20th century early on, in the 1940-1961 boomer years it was relatively high but has been slowly dropping. The high amount of boomers, their life expectancy of living longer, and the lowering number of births since then all sort of contribute. Do I think the OP has a valid point? Yeah... but it's not the boomers fault they were born then or living so long. I certainly do not see a resurgence of 5% growth like the 1980's or 1990's. Those days I think are well past us and yes, to a lesser extent we will see a economic decline like Japan though I think the U.S. economy can absorb some of the sharp edges if our lawmakers and politicians don't bone us unexpectedly.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html
 
Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post



Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government. The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.

Aging population is something that many countries in the world are looking at now. Notably, China and Japan (economic #2,3) are having significant problems/discussions about how to deal with this looming challenge, or in the case of Japan, a clear and present danger.

China's Aging Population | Michael Hodin

The US doesn't have quite the same issues, but there is no doubt that the baby boomers will weigh heavily on the economy as they retire. That is simply one economic woe to consider among others.
 
Aging population is something that many countries in the world are looking at now. Notably, China and Japan (economic #2,3) are having significant problems/discussions about how to deal with this looming challenge, or in the case of Japan, a clear and present danger.

China's Aging Population | Michael Hodin

The US doesn't have quite the same issues, but there is no doubt that the baby boomers will weigh heavily on the economy as they retire. That is simply one economic woe to consider among others.

They don't know if they want us to live longer and make money from turning us into cyborgs with catheters, knee, hip implants, pacemaker/defibrillators or tell us, we can't be fixed to save money. We're all going to get old, unless they start stamping us with an expiration date. How about let's be humane and take care of the helpless (infants, disabled, sick and old) for now and try to control the making of 4+ children families? Then the population of older folks won't be any problem.
 
Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post



Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government. The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.

It's hard to argue against the math of the Post. For sure, the boomers are retiring. We don't spend as much, because we don't make as much. OTOH, you can't ignore the peculiar genius of GW Bush, the first torturer, in having created an economic shift in negative directions. Why do we beat around the Bush instead of beating Bush?
 
Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post

Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government. The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.

All of those factor into our present situation. The demographics are, however, very real and they are beginning to come home to roost. Looking at the way Japan is developing gives hints that help understand where first Europe and then the USA will go. There will be considerable differences from cultural diversity of the peoples concerned, but the proportion of elderly will increasingly mean that on balance savings will be used for consumption and thus tend to reduce investment and later production. It really is going to be problematic and we will have to face the music. The earlier we stop raging against bankers, brokers or politicians, role up our sleeves and change our structures of checks, balances and decision making, the better those under 50 will live in later life.
 
My savings account reaped a whole .004% interest this past year.

That's 4 times what mine paid. Damn you must be loaded to get that high of a return! ;)
 
It's hard to argue against the math of the Post. For sure, the boomers are retiring. We don't spend as much, because we don't make as much. OTOH, you can't ignore the peculiar genius of GW Bush, the first torturer, in having created an economic shift in negative directions. Why do we beat around the Bush instead of beating Bush?

Maybe Bush is not the enemy?
 
They don't know if they want us to live longer and make money from turning us into cyborgs with catheters, knee, hip implants, pacemaker/defibrillators or tell us, we can't be fixed to save money. We're all going to get old, unless they start stamping us with an expiration date. How about let's be humane and take care of the helpless (infants, disabled, sick and old) for now and try to control the making of 4+ children families? Then the population of older folks won't be any problem.

Ah c'mon. You had a good run of it. 60s and 70s gave our country marijuana, sexual revolution, aids, breakdown of traditional family, hippies. Only fitting that your generation now bankrupt the country. Just kidding...sorta :p

Seriously though, it's something that will challenge us in the future. I particularly think that Social Security will either not be available to my generation or it will definitely not be recognizable if it persists. The good news is there should be plenty of jobs opening up as the baby boomers retire. The bad news is we will have less money to pay for social welfare programs. Difficult to project to what extent retiring baby boomers will be replaced by technology in the work force. Aging baby boomers will probably lead to unprecedented medical research and development.

All in all, there will be goods along with the 'others'. I don't think the economy is going to suffer to the extreme. Even Japan is doing fairly well standard of living wise despite their lack of economic growth. I think the biggest hit will be social welfare programs. We probably won't be able to take care of everyone with a third or more of our population retired or too young. Even fewer of the work force actually contributing to these programs to boot.
 
I said it before...Carrousel...but much older.

Live your life, save enough until you are some set age (like 80)...but nothing more. Then end it.

And have fun up to the day you die.

That is how I plan to go out...not one day older then 80 (assuming I am reasonably healthy until then).

Sure, I might chicken out...we shall see.
 
"Implicitly, Dent is saying: Don’t blame politicians, the decline of manufacturing, education or cheap foreign imports for the economic stagnation that has already begun and will continue for many years. Blame your parents and grandparents for losing interest in having children back in the Sixties."

That is the last paragraph in the New York Post article. And I call BS. I blame the politicians for not properly funding Medicare, SS, and city and state retirement funds causing money being siphoned off to pay for them. I blame an educational system that failed to train people to work in the global economy. I don't blame parents who did the right thing and reduced the number of children they had. This isn't some big Ponzi scheme that can only survive if more suckers are created.
 
Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post



Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government. The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.


That attitude in your message is why I believe the USA will continue to see rapidly increasing decline in the value of the dollar - and overall increasingly serious decline in the economy. The view that everything really is about who can make the best political speech.

The aging of Americans is a serious problem and one that will grow. People now are on benefits for over 2 decades on average. They do not produce, only consume, but not as products consumers - service consumers. I started thread on this topic a few days ago. Between those who are seniors drawing benefits, those living on government benefits otherwise, and those employed by government, the country is rapidly acceleration to the point that every working person will have to totally pay for someone else too. And that someone else will cost more than they themselves cost.

But instead people will just keep making political speeches raging about some evil "them." This is my response to the DNC's talking points.
 
"Implicitly, Dent is saying: Don’t blame politicians, the decline of manufacturing, education or cheap foreign imports for the economic stagnation that has already begun and will continue for many years. Blame your parents and grandparents for losing interest in having children back in the Sixties."

That is the last paragraph in the New York Post article. And I call BS. I blame the politicians for not properly funding Medicare, SS, and city and state retirement funds causing money being siphoned off to pay for them. I blame an educational system that failed to train people to work in the global economy. I don't blame parents who did the right thing and reduced the number of children they had. This isn't some big Ponzi scheme that can only survive if more suckers are created.

I don't think anyone is blaming old people. It is a fact that we will have to live with. Blaming will get us no where.

Regarding SS in it's current form and in our current state, it is a Ponzi scheme. It was conceived under honorable intentions, but has become bloated and unsustainable. We can't continue to perpetuate a system while putting our hands over our ears and screaming denying what is the unavoidable truth. Huge expansive social welfare programs hurt economy, only help a few generations before they eat themselves alive, and aren't flexible enough to deal with crises. For this reason, social welfare programs need to be extremely limited and ineligible for expansion. This creates predictability and sustainability while accomplishing the most basic of goals which is to keep people from dying on the streets NOT to provide people with comfortable retirement.
 
Yep. Our biggest national problem is really old folks that have worked for about 40+ of their lives and then wish to retire. The solution is subsidizing more out of wedlock childbirth, adding PPACA, rasing the minimum wage, off-shoring the manufacturing jobs, playing world policeman, taxing the hell out of fossil fuels, cooking tons of corn into ethanol, building solar arrays and windmills everywhere, offering free college and openning up the borders to any immigrant that wants to bop on in. ;)
 
I don't think anyone is blaming old people. It is a fact that we will have to live with. Blaming will get us no where.

Regarding SS in it's current form and in our current state, it is a Ponzi scheme. It was conceived under honorable intentions, but has become bloated and unsustainable. We can't continue to perpetuate a system while putting our hands over our ears and screaming denying what is the unavoidable truth. Huge expansive social welfare programs hurt economy, only help a few generations before they eat themselves alive, and aren't flexible enough to deal with crises. For this reason, social welfare programs need to be extremely limited and ineligible for expansion. This creates predictability and sustainability while accomplishing the most basic of goals which is to keep people from dying on the streets NOT to provide people with comfortable retirement.

I guess that I misspoke. I agree that SS is a Ponzi scheme. I just wish that it wasn't. The idealist in me thinks that maybe there was a way to make it like an insurance/annuity fund and spread out risk and still fulfill some need to help the elderly but we didn't do that.
 
I guess that I misspoke. I agree that SS is a Ponzi scheme. I just wish that it wasn't. The idealist in me thinks that maybe there was a way to make it like an insurance/annuity fund and spread out risk and still fulfill some need to help the elderly but we didn't do that.

It can happen. The main roadblock is that politicians push programs that sound good instead of pushing programs that ARE good. They have figured out that people will mostly overwhelmingly support things that are in Their personal best interest instead of the best interest of society. One of the reasons why we have representative democracy instead of direct democracy is partly because direct democracy is operationally difficult, but also it is intended for relative elites to do what is in the interest of the country instead of what is in the interest of the present time majority (age, ethnicity, ideology, etc.). Unfortunately this system has broken down somewhat.
 
That attitude in your message is why I believe the USA will continue to see rapidly increasing decline in the value of the dollar - and overall increasingly serious decline in the economy. The view that everything really is about who can make the best political speech.

The aging of Americans is a serious problem and one that will grow. People now are on benefits for over 2 decades on average. They do not produce, only consume, but not as products consumers - service consumers. I started thread on this topic a few days ago. Between those who are seniors drawing benefits, those living on government benefits otherwise, and those employed by government, the country is rapidly acceleration to the point that every working person will have to totally pay for someone else too. And that someone else will cost more than they themselves cost.

But instead people will just keep making political speeches raging about some evil "them." This is my response to the DNC's talking points.

All they do is consume, not produce, huh? How about all the infrastructure, technology and wealth they pass on for free to their unappreciative brats? If we burned up all the resources we leave behind, this next generation would be back to caveman days.
 
Aging America heading for disaster | New York Post



Now the economic downturn is caused by old people? I guess it had nothing to do with the housing boom/mortgage crisis and "debt bubble"? Sure the older population are more financially responsible with their income, because they don't have the ability to earn it anymore.

I'd look to other causes like banks, corporations, immigration and the government.
The average person, simply can't spend what they're not making.




Don't tell some people with credit cards that.




BTW: How does the U.S. government manage to spend so much more money than it actually has every year? Explain that, if you can.
 
Don't tell some people with credit cards that.




BTW: How does the U.S. government manage to spend so much more money than it actually has every year? Explain that, if you can.


The U.S. gov can spend more because they have a money tree. ;)
 
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