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Ending Rape On Campus[W 228]

Jack Hays said:
Greetings. As you rightly noted, it's not the thread for a racism discussion, but I doubt a country with an African American POTUS presents entrenched racism at every level of society.:peace
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For another time, Jack. :peace

Sorry, Jack. I inadvertently quoted your earlier post again.
 
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opendebate said:
from the article:

Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship. She resisted, told him no, pushed him away.

reference the DOJ definition of rape from my earlier post.

People are turning this into a battle between him and her. I haven't taken a side. I am defending her right to speak up and heard and not immediately dismissed. I find the ease and the immediacy with which she was dismissed here disturbing
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I wouldn't think that a woman who had been raped would be willing to tell the whole world about it, especially since she said she had been with him for three years, so I am curious about her reasons here, whether it occurred or not. We have heard about several "rape" stories recently, that turned out to be completely untrue, but very damaging to those accused until the truth emerged, so I'm willing to wait and see what happens with this one.

Greetings, Opendebate. :2wave:
 
Apparently I was raped once. Didn't know it at the time...

Went out with a gal. Took about 15 min to decide "oh HELL no, she crazy". Made mental note: do not get drunk, do not sleep with crazy bitch.

She bought me drinks and swapped them out behind my back when they got low. I got drunk. Close to off-my-ass drunk.

Took her home. Remembered mental note "do not sleep with crazy bitch". Tried to leave. She literally glommed onto me and tried to physically prevent me from leaving. Managed to make me fall down. Climbed on for the ride. I was drunk enough that my resolve to not sleep with crazy bitch got hazy, and "when in Rome, make out with a Roman" took over.

Well she had her way with me while I was too drunk to really give informed consent.

I guess I should go file charges, never mind its been 20 years, it was rape dammit! Well at least by modern standards, back in the day I'd of been laughed out of court... :shrug:


The world turns I suppose...
 
stonewall50 said:
Ending rape on campus
Student-led activists movement fights to end rape on campus - CNN.com

Well. I don't know exactly how this makes me feel. I read through the entire article and it is nice to see action. There is a problem and something needs to be done. For that I am happy.

But one of those incidents does not fit in with the rest. Espinosa's. I don't understand how that is rape? Maybe I misread it. But it just struck me somewhere as...odd. And. Maybe. A little bit off. Everyone else can someone explain that to me?
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So going after the school is going to help? :roll:
Concealed carry will help.
 
US Conservative said:
So going after the school is going to help? :roll:
Concealed carry will help.
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I am pro campus carry, but I think there is more than the to the issue. Obviously it would help if college was not a drunken slob fest. But I know that many organizations have formed that give a way for women to go to parties with friends and such.

Honestly...one death sentence for some college puke who date rapes might change the tune a little. But such statements are only a dream even in a world where one could PROVE that someone did such an action.
 
stonewall50 said:
I am pro campus carry, but I think there is more than the to the issue. Obviously it would help if college was not a drunken slob fest. But I know that many organizations have formed that give a way for women to go to parties with friends and such.

Honestly...one death sentence for some college puke who date rapes might change the tune a little. But such statements are only a dream even in a world where one could PROVE that someone did such an action.
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I agree with everything you just said, and if every lawyer that went after these schools instead put their effort into making up such "groups" it would probably do more good. Im sick of the finger always being pointed at someone else. These are college kids, they should be smart enough to figure this out.
 
Goshin said:
Apparently I was raped once. Didn't know it at the time...

Went out with a gal. Took about 15 min to decide "oh HELL no, she crazy". Made mental note: do not get drunk, do not sleep with crazy bitch.

She bought me drinks and swapped them out behind my back when they got low. I got drunk. Close to off-my-ass drunk.

Took her home. Remembered mental note "do not sleep with crazy bitch". Tried to leave. She literally glommed onto me and tried to physically prevent me from leaving. Managed to make me fall down. Climbed on for the ride. I was drunk enough that my resolve to not sleep with crazy bitch got hazy, and "when in Rome, make out with a Roman" took over.

Well she had her way with me while I was too drunk to really give informed consent.

I guess I should go file charges, never mind its been 20 years, it was rape dammit! Well at least by modern standards, back in the day I'd of been laughed out of court... :shrug:


The world turns I suppose...
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You should sue the bar and whomever made the liquor you were drinking...and the architect of the building.
 
Cryptic said:
The schools where I live have Co-ed dormitories, though same sex (at least in theory) floors. The whole sexually liberated concept is only fuel for date rape or acquantiance (sp) rape situations.

Though these forms of rape will occur with same sex dorms, the amount of opportunities sky rockets if men have constant access to women's rooms.


This is especially so as the women dont even have total control of their room: (Gee, why are you in my room? Because your roomate gave me permission and its her room to- Now, scoot over and have a drink...)
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Meh, we had the same thing, same co-ed set up, when I was in college and there wasnt much, if any, rape. Some women reported...to friends...regrets from drunken exploits the night before but not rape.

What you described (part that I split out) never happened that I'm aware of....seems far-fetched to me.
 
ChrisL said:
You must be kidding. She specifically said she was not forced into sex. Unless she is mentally deficient, then no this is not rape. Emotional manipulation does not equal rape anyway. That is utterly ridiculous.
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Sounds more like a domestic abuse situation to me, not rape.
 
instagramsci said:
Emotional manipulation is coercion. When coercion is used to convince a person to have sex or engage in sexual activities when s/he does not want to do so, this is sexual assault.
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Over and over? Why did she stay with him? She was not a prisoner. She let herself be victimized? As I said, more like domestic abuse than rape.
 
ChrisL said:
And adults are responsible for their OWN actions. I'm sorry but that is NOT sexual assault. She could have said no and I don't want to see you anymore. You can't go around blaming others for your OWN bad decisions.

Edit: Unless she was a minor. Then it's an entirely different scenario. But she was in college, so she was a young adult.
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Agreed.
 
WCH said:
You already said there was a lack of info and we'd probably never know the real truth.

I'm naturally going to go with my own personal experience and with those of people I know.

Obviously being a woman, you are more apt to believe her.
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I'm not. I hate when women act like victims...it makes us all look bad. It makes it harder to believe those truly abused or raped.

I have little respect for a woman staying 3 yrs in an abusive relationship....she had no children to protect...she was complicit IMO (without more info). She makes us all look weak and desperate.
 
Lursa said:
I'm not. I hate when women act like victims...it makes us all look bad. It makes it harder to believe those truly abused or raped.

I have little respect for a woman staying 3 yrs in an abusive relationship....she had no children to protect...she was complicit IMO (without more info). She makes us all look weak and desperate.
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Don't worry. She doesn't. Most of us recognise the difference. ;)
 
Lursa said:
I'm not. I hate when women act like victims...it makes us all look bad. It makes it harder to believe those truly abused or raped.

I have little respect for a woman staying 3 yrs in an abusive relationship....she had no children to protect...she was complicit IMO (without more info). She makes us all look weak and desperate.
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I understand the psychological dynamics involved in abusive relationships and how these particular women are usually lacking self esteem to a significant degree, so I would never say that she was "complicit" in her own abuse, but given the fact that the two of them lived separately along with the other facts of the case as described in the OP article, I really can't call that "rape" either.
 
Redress said:
It is easy to judge on the outside, but it has been my experience that it is not always easy for some people to leave relationships. Both my sisters spent years in abusive relationships. We told them again and again that they needed to get out. They where convinced they loved the person however, and that things could be repaired.
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I'm sorry for your sisters but IMO, rape can not be blamed on the victim. In domestic abuse....there is an element of complicity. Unless you are a prisoner, you owe it to yourself and any other women to get out.
 
ChrisL said:
I understand the psychological dynamics involved in abusive relationships and how these particular women are usually lacking self esteem to a significant degree, so I would never say that she was "complicit" in her own abuse, but given the fact that the two of them lived separately along with the other facts of the case as described in the OP article, I really can't call that "rape" either.
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I dont excuse that. "low self esteem?" Yes, a common reason. Do we see men behaving like that? Maybe, there are relationships where the men are the abused parties.

Every person has it within them to walk away. They CHOOSE to remain the victims. Is it a psychological problem? In most cases yes...but they still have to accept *some* responsibility.
 
stonewall50 said:
Ending rape on campus
Student-led activists movement fights to end rape on campus - CNN.com

Well. I don't know exactly how this makes me feel. I read through the entire article and it is nice to see action. There is a problem and something needs to be done. For that I am happy.

But one of those incidents does not fit in with the rest. Espinosa's. I don't understand how that is rape? Maybe I misread it. But it just struck me somewhere as...odd. And. Maybe. A little bit off. Everyone else can someone explain that to me?
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If her situation is ever made into a movie I'd suggest Glenn Close play Espinoza.
 
Lursa said:
I'm not. I hate when women act like victims...it makes us all look bad. It makes it harder to believe those truly abused or raped.

I have little respect for a woman staying 3 yrs in an abusive relationship....she had no children to protect...she was complicit IMO (without more info). She makes us all look weak and desperate.
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Like overly using the term 'racist' makes it more difficult when genuine racism occurs. but I think men, as well as women, see what's going on here. The difficulty is that men get little sympathy or understanding when these charges are made, and are difficult to disprove.
 
Lursa said:
I dont excuse that. "low self esteem?" Yes, a common reason. Do we see men behaving like that? Maybe, there are relationships where the men are the abused parties.

Every person has it within them to walk away. They CHOOSE to remain the victims. Is it a psychological problem? In most cases yes...but they still have to accept *some* responsibility.
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No, I mean the abusive relationship will cause the low self esteem. There is a pretty well known pattern with a lot of domestic abusers, which starts off with choice of a mate, and then the name-calling and psychological abuse and then when she is "under his thumb" is when the violence starts. BUT, in this situation the woman specifically says no violence or threats of violence, nor force were used against her.
 
Redress said:
The second sentence does not follow the first. Not knowing the truth does not require making uninformed guesses.

And I do not necessarily believe her. I do not know and am not inclined to speculate, and I am ok with that. My comment was not to suggest that her claim was accurate, but to suggest what part of her claim would be considered rape.
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She may very well legitimately feel victimized...but we cant fix all the mistakes we make in our lives. We can only learn and move on. Do you think that her bf deserves punishment? Lord knows, many of us probably hope that Karma takes a hand at some point...
 
ChrisL said:
No, I mean the abusive relationship will cause the low self esteem. There is a pretty well known pattern with a lot of domestic abusers, which starts off with choice of a mate, and then the name-calling and psychological abuse and then when she is "under his thumb" is when the violence starts. BUT, in this situation the woman specifically says no violence or threats of violence, nor force were used against her.
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Ah...but it's also my understanding that women do not stay and take it...not letting it go on and on...unless they have low self esteem. They put up with it, try to get it fixed, but do not stay if the abuse continues if they are more independent.

(My comments do not factor in children)
 
Lursa said:
Ah...but it's also my understanding that women do not stay and take it...not letting it go on and on...unless they have low self esteem. They put up with it, try to get it fixed, but do not stay if the abuse continues if they are more independent.

(My comments do not factor in children)
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In these situations, I think usually one of several things happens, the woman either ends up leaving him because she just wises up, he beats her so badly that she is hospitalized or one of the children is harmed, OR the worse case scenario is that he kills her.

In 2005, 1,181 women were murdered by an intimate partner.1 That's an average of three women every day. Of all the women murdered in the U.S., about one-third were killed by an intimate partner.2
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My biggest issue in this case is where she says he did not threaten or force her, but rather he was persistent and perhaps "bugged" her for sex, and she stated that she would eventually "give in" and THAT is not rape.
 
ChrisL said:
In these situations, I think usually one of several things happens, the woman either ends up leaving him because she just wises up, he beats her so badly that she is hospitalized or one of the children is harmed, OR the worse case scenario is that he kills her.

My biggest issue in this case is where she says he did not threaten or force her, but rather he was persistent and perhaps "bugged" her for sex, and she stated that she would eventually "give in" and THAT is not rape.
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I think a good analogy is addiction. You cannot make someone *do* anything...they will only do it (get clean, stop drinking, leave a bad relationship) when they are ready. Up to that point, I have a hard time saying they are not somewhat responsible for their own actions. For victims of abuse, getting them into counseling even while in the relationship, support from friends, boosting self esteem, gaining financial or emotional independence...can all help that person.

People have said, "it's not easy to leave.' It's not easy to leave any relationship. It's not easy to leave one where people are co-dependent and there is abuse. But it will only stop when you STOP it...by leaving. Unless you're dead.
 
Lursa said:
I think a good analogy is addiction. You cannot make someone *do* anything...they will only do it (get clean, stop drinking, leave a bad relationship) when they are ready. Up to that point, I have a hard time saying they are not somewhat responsible for their own actions. For victims of abuse, getting them into counseling even while in the relationship, support from friends, boosting self esteem, gaining financial or emotional independence...can all help that person.

People have said, "it's not easy to leave.' It's not easy to leave any relationship. It's not easy to leave one where people are co-dependent and there is abuse. But it will only stop when you STOP it...by leaving. Unless you're dead.
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This is all unfortunately true. I really can't argue with any of it.
 
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