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Ending Rape On Campus[W 228]

Soupnazi630 said:
No one is attempting to justify rape period.
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Intent means nothing here. Zero. What matters is what you guys are saying and doing. Your words make light of million's of women's and men's plights, period. Stop belittling rape stories.

The fact s many women falsely accuse men or rape which is just as bad and painful ( or worse ) than rape. Yet very seldom are such women punished. Notice how less than half of alleged rape victims consent to a rape test kit. In such cases it becomes his word against hers and a persons word is never valid reason to imprison someone.

We question her ( and his ) motives as you put it because the accused enjoy's the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty and he or she should enjoy that right regardless of the crime.

The problem with the crime of rape is that it IS easy to create a false or fake accusation and there are many motives for doing so. The same is true for assault ( read domestic violence ). People have a hard time falsely accusing someone of murder when there is no dead body. Or falsely accusing someone of theft when there is no missing property. Rape and assault however are very easy to fake when it is one persons word against another and the " victim " need only cry and appear traumatized to win the conviction in the court of public opinion.

No one is justifying rape stop trying to justify witch hunts against man.
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Yes you are. Over 90% of rape allegations turn out to be true. The reason why myths such as yours persist is that to acknowledge the epidemic of rape would be to acknowledge that there is a widespread problem with male behavior, as virtually every rapist is a male. Those attitudes help make rape a horribly difficult crime to report. Did you not read the victim's acknowledgement of that fact?
 
Redress said:
Without knowing what is being referred to in this case it is impossible to judge.
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I agree and is the point I am trying to get across. Since your posts seem to assume that the complaint is valid, despite remarks to the contrary
 
Phys251 said:
I just love how every single discussion about rape or sexual assault quickly turns into questioning the accuser's motives and not addressing the horrors of the crime..
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you might notice the various cases no one question and the nature of the one case that is being scrutinized.

Either that, or mindlessly reject all positions you disagree with and lob character attacks ...
 
Phys251 said:
Stop trying to justify what her boyfriend did. If there was no informed consent, yet intercourse occurred, it was rape. Period.
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Hey, Genius, that's what we are discussing: if informed consent occurred or not.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
you might notice the various cases no one question and the nature of the one case that is being scrutinized.

Either that, or mindlessly reject all positions you disagree with and lob character attacks ...
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I can't even read that first sentence...

Dr. Chuckles said:
Hey, Genius, that's what we are discussing: if informed consent occurred or not.
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So I can't flame, but you can. Neat.
 
Phys251 said:
That is not at all what I said. Don't insert words into my mouth. All I want is for sexual assault and rape victims to have their stories given the same deference as victims of arson, burglary, robbery, and other crimes. I find it fascinating that sexual crimes are treated differently in this regard, and I ask myself, why is that?
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it because anyone that disagrees with you is pro-rape
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
I agree and is the point I am trying to get across. Since your posts seem to assume that the complaint is valid, despite remarks to the contrary
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You might want to go back and actually read. Here is me first post in this thread:
Redress said:
Here is the key part and what makes it rape:



Assuming her story is true, physically coercing some one into having sex is going to fall into the category of rape. There is an area that I am not sure exactly how well defined it is in law that is really sticky on the rape question, but physical coercion is pretty definitely rape.
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I bolded the important part for you. Reading is fundamental, it will help prevent you from saying stupid ****.
 
Phys251 said:
I can't even read that first sentence...
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you might notice the various cases no one questioned, and the nature of the one case that is being scrutinized.
 
NoC_T said:
Damn, and I'm the sadist? Giving it, Chris. Not receiving. :lol:

I should have mentioned that even stat rape necessitates actual sex in order to qualify.
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:2razz: Well, you're the expert! Lol!
 
instagramsci said:
Emotional manipulation is coercion. When coercion is used to convince a person to have sex or engage in sexual activities when s/he does not want to do so, this is sexual assault.
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Then that would make a good percentage of men rapists. What a crock.
 
Phys251 said:
That is not at all what I said. Don't insert words into my mouth. All I want is for sexual assault and rape victims to have their stories given the same deference as victims of arson, burglary, robbery, and other crimes. I find it fascinating that sexual crimes are treated differently in this regard, and I ask myself, why is that?



When someone claims to have been the victim of a crime, I believe them unless I have a legitimate reason to not do so. This is not the same thing as guilty until proven innocent. Humans are not required to send every idea they have to a court of law to judge whether that idea is legit.
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It is exactly the same. You believe someone when they say they are the victim...and when it is a crime like rape, assault, and so on...you believe the other person is guilty.

And when it is an issue like THIS, someone is publicly accused without a trial to convict them of the crime. How exactly are you NOT supporting guilty until proven innocent?

The fact is that rape victims must prove they were raped. Just like any crime, there must be evidence of the victim's claim.
 
Well, going by the story where she herself states there was no forceable sex and since she was an adult, I consider her story to sound more like a bad relationship than a rape. She was with the guy for 3 years?
 
Sorry missed this post.

Redress said:
CNN did not give the kids name...
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They don't have to. They have her name. She likely has a Facebook. And he probably has one too. They didn't have to list his name. This is 2014. You can google that. In fact...in 30 seconds I found her name and her friends list. Her account isn't really private. And her friends list isn't. That is for sure. Now all I would have to do is find tagged photos for a rough 3 year period with the same guy.

It is scary how easy it is. I have an uncle who is a cop...old school...went to look up some girl to serve a warrant...his middle school aged daughter said, "no dad. She is at Burger King...she checked in with Facebook." It happens ALL the time.
 
stonewall50 said:
Ending rape on campus
Student-led activists movement fights to end rape on campus - CNN.com

Well. I don't know exactly how this makes me feel. I read through the entire article and it is nice to see action. There is a problem and something needs to be done. For that I am happy.

But one of those incidents does not fit in with the rest. Espinosa's. I don't understand how that is rape? Maybe I misread it. But it just struck me somewhere as...odd. And. Maybe. A little bit off. Everyone else can someone explain that to me?
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Bitchez be tripp'n :2wave:
 
Phys251 said:
Intent means nothing here. Zero. What matters is what you guys are saying and doing. Your words make light of million's of women's and men's plights, period. Stop belittling rape stories.



Yes you are. Over 90% of rape allegations turn out to be true. The reason why myths such as yours persist is that to acknowledge the epidemic of rape would be to acknowledge that there is a widespread problem with male behavior, as virtually every rapist is a male. Those attitudes help make rape a horribly difficult crime to report. Did you not read the victim's acknowledgement of that fact?
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Sorry you are wrong.

Stating facts as I have done about rape is not defending the crime which you would accuse people of doing.

You claim that 90% of allegations turn out to be true is an outright lie and falsehood. The myth is what you are repeating that virtually every rapist is a male. This is simply not true.

A victim claiming that it is difficult to report is by definition reporting it which makes the very claim contradictory.

The facts as I stated them are irrefutably true false accusations of rape are not well tracked but common place and they might outnumber unreported cases of legitimate rape whether you like it or not.
 
Phys251 said:
Am I to play the same game as you and assume that this is how most rape apologists talk?
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She was with him for 3 years! She says herself that she was never forced to have sex with him. She was an adult when it happened. How do you figure this is rape? It sounds to me like she is bitter over a bad relationship, but THAT is not rape. She doesn't even say HOW she was alleged "coerced" into sex with him.

If she was a child at the time and made these claims, that would be another story completely.
 
stonewall50 said:
It is exactly the same. You believe someone when they say they are the victim...and when it is a crime like rape, assault, and so on...you believe the other person is guilty.

And when it is an issue like THIS, someone is publicly accused without a trial to convict them of the crime. How exactly are you NOT supporting guilty until proven innocent?

The fact is that rape victims must prove they were raped. Just like any crime, there must be evidence of the victim's claim.
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I sincerely hope that your friends, should they ever become a victim of crime, NEVER come to you for consolation. I can't imagine what this marked lack of empathy would do to them.

You twist and distort my words, and you choose not to listen. You choose not to understand my differentiation between listening to someone who claims to be a crime victim vs. how I would act as a juror in that very same crime.
 
Phys251 said:
That is not at all what I said. Don't insert words into my mouth. All I want is for sexual assault and rape victims to have their stories given the same deference as victims of arson, burglary, robbery, and other crimes. I find it fascinating that sexual crimes are treated differently in this regard, and I ask myself, why is that?



When someone claims to have been the victim of a crime, I believe them unless I have a legitimate reason to not do so. This is not the same thing as guilty until proven innocent. Humans are not required to send every idea they have to a court of law to judge whether that idea is legit.
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They are given the same defference IF there is proof that the crime took place.

Notice the specific types of crimes you named in comparison. Arson, robbery, burglary, all of these crimes are difficult to fake. One cannot accuse someone of commiting arson unless someones property has been set fire to and burned down. You might burn your own property and blame someone else but the crime still happened and is undeniable. The same basic truth applies to robbery and burglary. It is hard to accuse somone of stealing something which has not been stolen. Some people for example hide their own property and attempt to report it stolen while making an insurance claim. In general the authorities are very good at solving those crimes and such people tend to get charged with insurance fraud because they usually do not want to completely get rid of the property they report stolen and so they get caught.

Rape in contrast is most often one persons word against anothers ( assault or domestic violence fits the same description ) especially because no rape test kit is completed in over half of all accusations of rape. Therefore it is simple easier to lie and falsely accuse people of this crime.
 
Soupnazi630 said:
They are given the same defference IF there is proof that the crime took place.

Notice the specific types of crimes you named in comparison. Arson, robbery, burglary, all of these crimes are difficult to fake. One cannot accuse someone of commiting arson unless someones property has been set fire to and burned down. You might burn your own property and blame someone else but the crime still happened and is undeniable. The same basic truth applies to robbery and burglary. It is hard to accuse somone of stealing something which has not been stolen. Some people for example hide their own property and attempt to report it stolen while making an insurance claim. In general the authorities are very good at solving those crimes and such people tend to get charged with insurance fraud because they usually do not want to completely get rid of the property they report stolen and so they get caught.

Rape in contrast is most often one persons word against anothers ( assault or domestic violence fits the same description ) especially because no rape test kit is completed in over half of all accusations of rape. Therefore it is simple easier to lie and falsely accuse people of this crime.
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I would agree that there are false accusations, but rape is a common crime, so don't assume that MOST are false allegations. Most are probably very real, only rape is difficult to prove, so a lack of evidence sufficient to prosecute doesn't equal a false allegation.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
It seems that defining rape is a prerequisite for that effort. Like Espinosa, I am struggling to make sense of her new definition of rape.
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She says physical coercion was used. How is that a new definition of rape?

herenow1 said:
I'm not buying what Espinosa is putting down. Unless a man has you trapped in a house and is beating and or threatening you on a regular basis, you DON'T STAY!!
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It sounds like, thankfully, you have no experience with domestic abuse:

"An abuser will hit their partner an average of 35 times before police are notified for the first time. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, February 2003)"

The Facts About Domestic Violence | Doorways for Women and Families

ChrisL said:
You must be kidding. She specifically said she was not forced into sex. Unless she is mentally deficient, then no this is not rape. Emotional manipulation does not equal rape anyway. That is utterly ridiculous.
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Actually, no, that isn't what she said at all. From the article in the OP:

"Yes, he was her boyfriend. No, he hadn't pinned her down, or threatened violence. But Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship."

Emphasis mine, of course.
 
ChrisL said:
She was with him for 3 years! She says herself that she was never forced to have sex with him. She was an adult when it happened. How do you figure this is rape? It sounds to me like she is bitter over a bad relationship, but THAT is not rape. She doesn't even say HOW she was alleged "coerced" into sex with him.
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Few things in life as ironic as a woman justifying rape.

It is none of our damn business how the alleged coercion occurred. That is an extremely personal and upsetting chapter in her life, and she has the absolute right to keep that information private. If you had problems in your sex life--and unless rape was involved, then I can assure you, you are almost certainly going through nothing anywhere nearly as traumatic--shouldn't we know the details? Shouldn't we be allowed to judge for ourselves whether your positions, technique, body weight, shaving habits, and all sorts of other intimate details about you? Or would that feel like a gross intrusion of your privacy, not to mention horribly creepy? Guess what: Many rape survivors that I have talked to have expressed the exact same sentiment about having the particulars of that horrible night, or nights, or days, discussed. Why should you get a pass when she does not?

If she was a child at the time and made these claims, that would be another story completely.
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Our society has finally gotten serious about the epidemic of pedophilia--almost paranoid at times, I say. But when it comes to rape of teenage and grown women, society remains remarkably silent. Your sentiment accurately reflects this.
 
Phys251 said:
Am I to play the same game as you and assume that this is how most rape apologists talk?
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If you want to avoid addressing the content of my posts
 
ChrisL said:
I would agree that there are false accusations, but rape is a common crime, so don't assume that MOST are false allegations. Most are probably very real, only rape is difficult to prove, so a lack of evidence sufficient to prosecute doesn't equal a false allegation.
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I never said most.

False accusations are also common.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
She says physical coercion was used. How is that a new definition of rape?



It sounds like, thankfully, you have no experience with domestic abuse:

"An abuser will hit their partner an average of 35 times before police are notified for the first time. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, February 2003)"

The Facts About Domestic Violence | Doorways for Women and Families



Actually, no, that isn't what she said at all. From the article in the OP:

"Yes, he was her boyfriend. No, he hadn't pinned her down, or threatened violence. But Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship."

Emphasis mine, of course.
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Did he force her to stay against her will? Was she an adult at the time?

She was with him for THREE years!!! I'm assuming she wasn't being held prisoner because if that had been the case, surely charges would have been filed. She has to take responsibility for her bad relationship decisions.
 
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