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Iran sending warships close to US borders[W:623]

Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

ChrisL said:
I don't know, try to solve some problems. From where I stand, I see the main problem as being Israel. I do support Israel because they are in a strategic location, they are expert intelligence gatherers (which I'm sure benefits the US), and if SHTF, they would back us up. Israel is a powerful ally, no doubt about it.

However, I can see that pretty much the entire ME is still carrying a grudge against Israel claiming ownership of land in the ME (except it was mostly the French and British who were responsible for "partitioning" the land and calling it Israel. Israel feels as if they have a right to the land because they were ousted from it thousands of years ago, which I will admit, is a bit ridiculous. However, what's done is done, and Israel is NOT going anywhere. They are a well-established country now, and I think it's about time that the countries around them grow up and accept that and try to work with Israel instead of against them.

I can understand how the Palestinians feel upset about "state of Israel" as they lay claim to the land as well. However, the palestinians never really had a home land. They were kind of ousted by all of the other countries in the ME and not very liked either. They were more like "nomad" types. When Israelites took over the land, they made it what it is today. Before that, it was nothing but a barren wasteland with nomads wandering around.

I will admit though that Israel is pushing the buttons of the Palestinians with the encroachment on the land that is now Palestine. The whole situation over there is just so mucked up, and there is so much hatred, that there is NEVER going to be an easy solution.

The bottom line is main reason for their hatred of us is our support of Israel. So I guess we could just abandon the country of Israel and leave them to the wolves, by they ARE a valuable ally and PEOPLE live there.
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Beyond all that, there were no such people as "Palestinians" historically. They only came into being as a convenient argument against Zionism. Before that, they were just Arabs with no particular distinguishing characteristics from Other Arabs. It would like a situation where, say, the people of Maine decided they were a separate entity from the United States and then attempted to retrofit an entire history as a people back in time.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

ChrisL said:
Interesting accusation and just shows your paranoia. Please show a post of mine where I suggested bombing anything at all. I'll be waiting.



And what accusations where those? The ones I provided links to, about human rights violations? Well, sorry, but I provided REPUTABLE links to back up those allegations, unlike yourself.
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I'm waiting.:coffeepap
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Gardener said:
Beyond all that, there were no such people as "Palestinians" historically. They only came into being as a convenient argument against Zionism. Before that, they were just Arabs with no particular distinguishing characteristics from Other Arabs. It would like a situation where, say, the people of Maine decided they were a separate entity from the United States and then attempted to retrofit an entire history as a people back in time.
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Right, well for lack of a better term to refer to them, and usually when I do call them "Palestinians" I'm referring to modern times. But yeah, I know what you're saying.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Michael Johnson said:
I'm waiting.:coffeepap
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Okay, bye-bye now. Obviously you have nothing of substance to add to the conversation except for nutty crazy statements with absolutely nothing to back them, so unless you have something of substance to add, see ya! :2wave:
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

ChrisL said:
Again, no substance, no links, no evidence.
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Exactly so why don't you provide some? You've done nothing but go on off-topic rants about Israel, and regurgitated pro-U.S. talking points.

I don't think you know how to debate. Your paranoid rantings do make for debate. Like I said, any crazy can come here and make dumb statements. I'm certainly not taking your accusations against the US seriously. This is just loony.
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You haven't debated anyone here at all on this thread, with the exceptions of cherry picking and throwing around ad hominems.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

ChrisL said:
Okay, bye-bye now. Obviously you have nothing of substance to add to the conversation except for nutty crazy statements with absolutely nothing to back them, so unless you have something of substance to add, see ya! :2wave:
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Go ahead, keep posting your childish rhetoric for everyone to see.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

I understand that the idea of a Navy approaching US waters may seem to be frightening but I have some faith that the US military will make it clear that they do not want a new fleet arriving in American waters. This may be comparable to the president's actions during WW2, maybe Iran is showboating some of its supposed powers. But I doubt that this will be an issue.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

For those of you who actually take this topic seriously and want to hear about the problems and the solutions in some kind of detail, here is an excellent report which talks about Iran's shadowy activities and evidence of such as well. It also discusses ways in which we could deal with some of these problems, not that I agree with them all necessarily, but it's interesting nonetheless.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/testimony/LevittTestimony20120725.pdf
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Here is an excerpt, because it is pretty long. Another thing, I don't know HOW they would hope to go about accomplishing some of these goals.

1. Deny Iran and Hezbollah Any Reasonable Deniability
Operating in the shadows, through proxies and trusted operatives, is Iran’s trademark
modus operandi. Iran cannot win a conventional war against the West, but it can exact a
high price through asymmetric warfare. Key to that doctrine, however, is the need to
maintain “reasonable deniability” for its acts of state sponsorship of terrorism. Exposing
Iran’s involvement in international terrorism is now more important than ever, both to
deny the group its coveted “reasonable deniability” and to build an international consensus
for action against Iran’s support for terrorism.

2. Raise the Cost for Iranian State Sponsorship
One reason Iran is using terrorism as an extension of its foreign policy is that it remains a
cost effective and relatively risk-free endeavor for Tehran. Iran must be led to believe that
the cost of sponsoring or carrying out an act of terrorism will now be high. That will be a
difficult message to convey in light of Iran’s history of carrying out massive attacks
without any significant reaction from America, even in the case of attacks against U.S.
interests (Beirut, Khobar Towers, Iraq).

3. Apply Diplomatic Pressure
In light of Iran’s long-standing use of diplomatic equities to support international
terrorism, Washington should press its allies to restrict the size of Iranian missions to the
minimum needed to conduct official business, to restrict visits by Iranian officials to official
business only (no meetings with sympathizers, no speeches, etc.), and to exercise
diligence about the possibility that nondiplomatic Iranian travelers connected to the
Iranian government may be engaged in illegal activities. Iranian diplomats should only be
allowed to travel outside the city to which they are assigned on official business.

Consider that Iran’s intelligence penetration of South America has expanded significantly
since the AMIA bombing. Testifying before Congress in the weeks following that 1994
attack, the State Department’s coordinator for counterterrorism expressed concern that
Iranian embassies in the region were stacked with larger than necessary numbers of
diplomats, some of whom were believed to be intelligence agents and terrorist operatives:
“We are sharing information in our possession with other States about Iranian diplomats,
Iranian terrorist leaders who are posing as diplomats, so that nations will refuse to give
them accreditation, or if they are already accredited, to expel them. We have had some
success in that respect, but we have not always succeeded.”56
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Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

ChrisL said:
I don't really see anything in that link that is SO outrageous. I think everything in the article is pretty much accurate. What points are you disputing?
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Not so much outrageous as crafted to deceive. Iran might get ICBMs at some point in the future, but it's not like we've stopped development, either.

We've had ICBMs since the 60's, anyhow. By the time they reach that point, we will have made them obsolete, if indeed we haven't already.

And none of that potential does anything about the nuclear deterrents in place.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

WillyPete said:
Not so much outrageous as crafted to deceive. Iran might get ICBMs at some point in the future, but it's not like we've stopped development, either.

We've had ICBMs since the 60's, anyhow. By the time they reach that point, we will have made them obsolete, if indeed we haven't already.

And none of that potential does anything about the nuclear deterrents in place.
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That might be true, but if we cut back on our military spending, and they continue to grow theirs, that could put us at a disadvantage some time in the future. I don't think that's so far fetched. The mighty have fallen throughout history when they get "comfortable" and careless.

I want to make it clear though, that I don't feel like this particular "incident" puts us in imminent danger, but rather that is just a jumping off point for discussion about this particular issue that we do have with Iran and other ME countries.

And I'm not saying that the US is angels either, but what has happened in the past has happened and there's no changing that.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

I understand that the idea of a Navy approaching US waters may seem to be frightening but I have some faith that the US military will make it clear that they do not want a new fleet arriving in American waters. This may be comparable to the president's actions during WW2, maybe Iran is showboating some of its supposed powers. But I doubt that this will be an issue.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Michael Johnson said:
Really? Provide examples.
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Nope, not going to play the 'wild goose chase' game....Sorry...I think that once you've been here a while, you'll get to know that even the dumbest poster in here is still more on the game than the smartest average 'low information voter' if you will....For instance, one more than one occasion I myself have gone over the multiple sources I use, but to listen to hyper partisan leftists, you'd think that I only listen to FNC....That is a weak argument period...Just like if I were to say that you only get your news from MSNBC, or DailyKOS, I'm fairly sure you would dispute that...Most in here are more well informed ideology aside, than the average person.

Give examples on why "Murica!" should bomb Iran to pieces.
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Where did I say that? I think that you should stick to what is said, and not in what you think you know.

Give justifications and statistics as to why our state sanctioned killers should remain in the Middle East.
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Why should I go through all the work included in your request when it is clear from your language that you harbor such disdain for anything that doesn't agree with your hate filled view of your own country?

Please explain why "law enforcement" officers here in the U.S. are allowed paid time off after murdering children.
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What does our law enforcement have to do with Iranian warships steaming for the east coast? You're on a rant here against America, that's all....

Don't preach to me about political talking pap.
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Then give me something that isn't just that....All you're doing so far is spewing the hate filled pap of OWS or worse. Try some original thought, and we can have a discussion, other than that I will assume you aren't here for discussion at all.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Additionally, Iran's pursuit of asymmetric warfare is typical of the Middle East. The Iranian government sees terrorism as a cost-effective way to to exact high costs on the western world. The only solution that I see to this problem is to put more pressure diplomatically on Iran. The UN security council should also put more pressure on Iran.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

j-mac said:
Nope, not going to play the 'wild goose chase' game....
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Then you're really not providing anything of substance by making generalizations about online posters you hardly know.

Why should I go through all the work included in your request when it is clear from your language that you harbor such disdain for anything that doesn't agree with your hate filled view of your own country?
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You're the only one who said I hate my own country. I never said that nor is criticizing my country means I have a "hate filled view."
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

ChrisL said:
That might be true, but if we cut back on our military spending, and they continue to grow theirs, that could put us at a disadvantage some time in the future. I don't think that's so far fetched. The mighty have fallen throughout history when they get "comfortable" and careless.
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Well we've got them by two orders of magnitude right now (link) so I'm comfortable saying we've got bigger fish to fry for the foreseeable future.


I want to make it clear though, that I don't feel like this particular "incident" puts us in imminent danger, but rather that is just a jumping off point for discussion about this particular issue that we do have with Iran and other ME countries.
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Do you have concrete steps in mind? You're 3 points (from #584) are mighty broad. I can't, for example, think of any real way to make it impossible for them to deny their terrorist operations (#1.) Even if we recorded hard evidence, and infiltrated them at all levels, many will simply believe the evidence is falsified.

We could kill them with kindness, perhaps. Offer publicly and loudly to provide overwhelming amounts of (non-religious) humanitarian aid, and make it clear, in public, on the ground in Iran, that we want to partner up and help. Don't hand it over for them to distribute, send our own people (under the UN flag would be ok, I guess) and hand it to the public in person.

Give them a taste of our lifestyle, and they'll demand more from their government. I can't think of anything more terrifying for their government. Likely they'd refuse outright, but then the lines would be redrawn about who stands where.


And I'm not saying that the US is angels either, but what has happened in the past has happened and there's no changing that.
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We can change the way people think of it by apologizing and making some type of restitution, rather than pretending nothing happened.

We've burned Iran badly in the the past, and why should we expect them believe we'll act in good faith today, if we don't acknowledge that?

Certainly they have acted badly, too, but they've never been afforded the respect one nation gives anther by the west. Incidentally, that same lack of respect helped to drive Japan into Germany's arms in WWII.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Michael Johnson said:
Then you're really not providing anything of substance by making generalizations about online posters you hardly know.
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So you stopped reading right there? Typical....*shakes head*

You're the only one who said I hate my own country. I never said that nor is criticizing my country means I have a "hate filled view."
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Hmmmm....Let's see, you describe America as "Murica"

"1. murica
The way un-educated Americans (generally rednecks, hicks, republicans, or very patriotic people) say America."

Urban Dictionary: murica

This phrase is used in the derogatory, meant to insult people that consider themselves 'patriotic' as dumb...I am sure it is full of love though....:roll:

Then you continue....You speak of out military as "our state sanctioned killers" displaying a deep seeded hatred of the military, you speak of our police and first responders as "child murders", that can only mean that you respect them right?

No, you were clear, and now want to play semantics...Give it up, you're horrible at it.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Goshin said:
Not even if they offer them pulled pork BBQ?? :lamo
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Gross . I don't know, the way their minds work is a mystery to me :wassat1:
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

WillyPete said:
Well we've got them by two orders of magnitude right now (link) so I'm comfortable saying we've got bigger fish to fry for the foreseeable future.




Do you have concrete steps in mind? You're 3 points (from #584) are mighty broad. I can't, for example, think of any real way to make it impossible for them to deny their terrorist operations (#1.) Even if we recorded hard evidence, and infiltrated them at all levels, many will simply believe the evidence is falsified.

We could kill them with kindness, perhaps. Offer publicly and loudly to provide overwhelming amounts of (non-religious) humanitarian aid, and make it clear, in public, on the ground in Iran, that we want to partner up and help. Don't hand it over for them to distribute, send our own people (under the UN flag would be ok, I guess) and hand it to the public in person.

Give them a taste of our lifestyle, and they'll demand more from their government. I can't think of anything more terrifying for their government. Likely they'd refuse outright, but then the lines would be redrawn about who stands where.




We can change the way people think of it by apologizing and making some type of restitution, rather than pretending nothing happened.

We've burned Iran badly in the the past, and why should we expect them believe we'll act in good faith today, if we don't acknowledge that?

Certainly they have acted badly, too, but they've never been afforded the respect one nation gives anther by the west. Incidentally, that same lack of respect helped to drive Japan into Germany's arms in WWII.
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Well, you have to admit that it is extremely difficult to respect or to work with a person like Ahmadinejad.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Michael Johnson said:
I caught a headache trying to read the rest of the conservative red meat fluff.
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That's it? That's all you got? Sorry dude, you are just not worth my time.
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

Maybe now that Ahmadinejad is gone, we can make some headway. :shrug:
 
Re: Iran sending warships close to US borders

grip said:
News from The Associated Press



Does anyone else think this is not a great idea? Sort of like waving red meat in front of a pit-bull.
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You can bet our subs are following them all the way.....

If I was Obama I would order that if those ships penetrate US waterways they should be sunk immediately.

Of course Obama wouldn't do that because he loves Iran.

Meanwhile the Iranian military is making faux videos of US navel ships being bombed and airing the videos on their state run TV...

Hell, I'd blow that Iranian ship - just because their attempt to get as close as possible is an insult, and their little fake videos of them blowing up are ships is a punch in the face.
 
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