RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman[W:90]

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

No, they were 'making excuses' for it. That's not 'clinical' in nature.

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Quote for me one of these posts.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

Yes but he moved to heroin. For a better high?

That's just speculation on my part because I have zero idea why anyone, esp. of his age, would try heroin. We were taught from a very young age how dangerous and addictive heroin is.

What a waste.

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It's the ease of getting heroin now - so called "dime bags" - for $10 anyone can get them. Pain pills are much harder to get now -restricted by DEA/FDA

The east coast is awash in a blizzard of China White (heroin) -the stuff with the fentanyl, though the epidemic is widespread

'An epidemic of heroin': Hoffman is a new face of growing problem - NBC News.com

The number of heroin users in the U.S. nearly doubled in five years, to 669,000 in 2012 from 373,000 in 2007, according to statistics from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.
The number who abused or grew dependent on heroin more than doubled in 10 years to 467,000 in 2012 from 214,000 in 2002.
But in recent years, government crackdowns on illicit use of pain medications has made pills more expensive and harder to get. "And heroin is making its way into all these places

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Cardinal said:

Quote for me one of these posts.

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Northern Light said:

The very guilting and shaming in this thread is a product of ignorance and fear, and is the reason why brilliant, sensitive people like Hoffman turn to drugs in the first place, and stay on them in secret. On one hand people will acknowledge that he was a highly talented actor but it seems like a platitude because they fail to realize the kind of intimate understanding of human nature and intense empathy that these kinds of actors have in order to make them big screen material. Then they are thrown into fame and fortune, and it's too much. Societal ignorance and fear keeps these people isolated so that they feel they have to deal with their demons alone. Same thing happens with highly talented musicians all the time.

What does it matter that he is rich and famous? That is all the more isolating. People who claim he had everything and stupidly threw it away are the kind of people who think money can buy happiness if you just have a lot of it.

He recently lost his kids to a custody battle. That's just the kind of thing that would toss a former addict back into turmoil. Most rehab programs in the United States have a very intense anti-drug angle, otherwise they wouldn't get licensed; and people who relapse tend to be worse off because they have had new anti-drug programming put into them by rehab which makes them feel unable to reveal the relapse to anyone.

That kind of isolation plus the low tolerance of sobriety is the perfect recipe for disaster. It's our anti-drug culture courtesy of nanny government, lack of any widespread harm reduction models, and the intense denial of addiction as DISEASE that creates the casualties. NYC doesn't even have a safe injection site with harm reduction resources. In a city that big, it's a crying shame.

Yes PSH is personally responsible for his own actions, but you can't just peg it all on him like he was some careless derelict junkie. Mental health issues are complicated and in isolation they can be deadly.

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Summerwind said:

To an extent I agree, but y'know I think that there's a huge amount of insecurity in the lifestyle. Never knowing from day to day if you have a role tomorrow, if you have a role how will it be received, and the inordinate level of pressure on the actors vs others in the media making realm. If a director or an editor or some other position screws up their aspect of a media presentation, it'll still be the actor usually that takes the blame....

I do agree that they should have the resource to get and keep their **** together, but to look at it as somehow saying that a posh life (ie materialistically satisfying) is all a person needs to be happy and well adjusted is a bit narrow minded.

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Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

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Neither of them said that Hoffman's drug use was positive. If you think hypothesizing over the possible causes of drug addiction is the same thing as defending it, you'd be one hell of a drug addiction counselor.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Cardinal said:

Neither of them said that Hoffman's drug use was positive. If you think hypothesizing over the possible causes of drug addiction is the same thing as defending it, you'd be one hell of a drug addiction counselor.

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Where did I ever say the word positive? Or anything implying 'good?' I said they were making excuses for him.

Do not put words in my mouth or change course.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

Where did I ever say the word positive? Or anything implying 'good?' I said they were making excuses for him.

Do not put words in my mouth or change course.

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There are practical explanations for all manner of terrible decisions. Those explanations are not necessarily attempts to defend those decisions.

And since the point of the thread was to honor a talented actor you are in no position to criticize anyone about "changing course."

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Cardinal said:

There are practical explanations for all manner of terrible decisions. Those explanations are not necessarily attempts to defend those decisions.

And since the point of the thread was to honor a talented actor you are in no position to criticize anyone about "changing course."

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Yes, I realize my perspective doesnt work for you. However it's valid and relevant to the direction the thread has taken. Which you would have been happy to continue had it worked out for you.

I gave you the proof you asked for and you dismiss it and call it irrelevant.

have a nice day.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

Yes, I realize my perspective doesnt work for you. However it's valid and relevant to the direction the thread has taken. Which you would have been happy to continue had it worked out for you.

I gave you the proof you asked for and you dismiss it and call it irrelevant.

have a nice day.

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It's not valid to go into mind reading mode and declare what people did and didn't mean to say. If you had been interested in proof you would have asked Northern Light and Summerwind if their intention had been to defend Hoffman's drug use or explain it.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Cardinal said:

It's not valid to go into mind reading mode and declare what people did and didn't mean to say. If you had been interested in proof you would have asked Northern Light and Summerwind if their intention had been to defend Hoffman's drug use or explain it.

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????? I never asked for proof and needed zero interpretation of their posts. You ASKED me to support my claim that people had posted making excuses for his heroin use.

I did. And you dismissed and continue to bob and weave like I had some other agenda?

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

????? I never asked for proof and needed zero interpretation of their posts. You ASKED me to support my claim that people had posted making excuses for his heroin use.

I did. And you dismissed and continue to bob and weave like I had some other agenda?

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Of course I dismissed it! Because you came in at eleven pages, completely ignored the context of the discussion and just declared what people meant by their own words instead of asking for clarification because, as you said, you need zero proof or interpretation of their posts. Utter arrogance!

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

poweRob said:

****ing asshole.

Great actor. just... I can't stand these famous people doing this junk. You already live the posh easy life all while having people look up to you then you do this stupid ****. Jerk.

Clearly you didn't have a settled enough life so may you find it now. RIP.

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"How can you be unhappy if you have so much money?" :roll:

Stupid comment

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Cardinal said:

Of course I dismissed it! Because you came in at eleven pages, completely ignored the context of the discussion and just declared what people meant by their own words instead of asking for clarification because, as you said, you need zero proof or interpretation of their posts. Utter arrogance!

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THere was no clarification needed. You asked me to show where people made excuses for him...and I did. *I* needed nothing. It fit directly into the discussion at the time.

And of course you dismiss it because I provided the proof you demanded and it was inconvenient to your argument. Just as continuing with the discussion would be 'inconvenient' so you declare it irrelevant and arrogant.

Get over yourself. Man up and quit the bobbing and weaving. I wont bother providing proof in the future. It's obvious that you'll reject it if you dont like it.

Original exchange:

Cardinal said:

Nobody is defending his heroin use. This shouldn't have to be said.

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Lursa said:

Odd, I found several people in this thread were at least making excuses for it....that is defending it IMO.

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Cardinal said:

Quote for me one of these posts.

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I posted 2.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

THere was no clarification needed. You asked me to show where people made excuses for him...and I did. *I* needed nothing. It fit directly into the discussion at the time.

And of course you dismiss it because I provided the proof you demanded and it was inconvenient to your argument. Just as continuing with the discussion would be 'inconvenient' so you declare it irrelevant and arrogant.

Get over yourself. Man up and quit the bobbing and weaving. I wont bother providing proof in the future. It's obvious that you'll reject it if you dont like it.

Original exchange:







I posted 2.

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I didn't see any "excuses" made, as in "It's not his fault"

IMO, any who thinks that, when it comes to addition, there is just one thing to blame has a pretty simple minded view of addiction.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

sangha said:

I didn't see any "excuses" made, as in "It's not his fault"

IMO, any who thinks that, when it comes to addition, there is just one thing to blame has a pretty simple minded view of addiction.

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My definition of 'excuses' here were all the reasons they listed for him to need heroin. People were using it, IMO, as a way to defend his use.

The context was not addiction but use.

I refrained from providing my opinion on use, as the mods were clear that this is an RIP thread.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

My definition of 'excuses' here were all the reasons they listed for him to need heroin. People were using it, IMO, as a way to defend his use.

The context was not addiction but use.

I refrained from providing my opinion on use, as the mods were clear that this is an RIP thread.

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I did not see anyone say he "needed" heroin. I must have missed that comment

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

sangha said:

I did not see anyone say he "needed" heroin. I must have missed that comment

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The posts I quoted showed people's speculation on why he used it....and IMO they were excuses....they were all based on need. (I think all, I havent looked at them recently).

Cardinal said:

This is unexpected of someone of his dignity and caliber. His talent will be greatly missed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/03/movies/philip-seymour-hoffman-actor-dies-at-46.html

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I am said that he his dead, for his fans but more importantly for his family/loved ones. They will have to miss someone they truly loved.

But as for him? I am sorry that he is dead but the only one anyone can blame for this is PSH himself, drugs kill, everybody knows that. Continued use of drugs usually kills people, if not in the short term then it will kill them in the long term.

Mr. Hoffman killed himself with his irresponsible behavior and it is his loved ones who are paying the price for his drugs taking. They are the ones who have to miss their loved one. I might sound like a jerk, but I used to be addicted to gambling and know that it is hard to stop doing something you mentally and physically are hooked on, but mollycoddling junkies is not going to help them. The harsh and painful truth is the only thing that can help someone.

Philip Seymour Hoffman selfishly choose his addiction over his children and even though it is sad for everybody around him that he is dead, this might be a wake up call to other celebrity and non-celebrity drug addicts that it can and will happen to all those who choose to feed their habit, this is the ultimate price you will pay.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

The posts I quoted showed people's speculation on why he used it....and IMO they were excuses....they were all based on need. (I think all, I havent looked at them recently).

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People certainly did speculate on why he used it, but that doesn't make it an excuse or a statement that he needed heroin.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

sangha said:

People certainly did speculate on why he used it, but that doesn't make it an excuse or a statement that he needed heroin.

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That's certainly how I interpreted their posts, that they were making excuses (I didnt claim he needed it, that seemed like speculation).

YMMV

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Lursa said:

That's certainly how I interpreted their posts.

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Yes, it certainly is.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

he was a recovering addict. I didn't se any support groups, he didn't go to Narcotics Anonymous (NA), he let his years of clean time catch up to himself without a "one day at a time" thinking process.

Addiction is a permanent condition; one can stay clean with daily desires to do so, along with at least periodic support groups, personal inventory - basic stuff of rehabilitation. If one doesn't do this, one is more likely to lapse.

Seems like he didn't really try to "work the program" - not going to judge him though, addiction is insidious, and manifests itself different ways for different people. Once you have the disease it has to be acknowledged can't just say "well i'm clean now"

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

annata said:

he was a recovering addict. I didn't se any support groups, he didn't go to Narcotics Anonymous (NA), he let is years of clean time catch up to him.

Addiction is a permanent condition; one can stay clean with daily desires to do so, along with at least periodic support groups, personal inventory - basic stuff of rehabilitation. If one doesn't do this, one is more likely to lapse.
Seems like he didn't really try to "work the program" - not going to judge him though, addiction is insidious, and manifests itself different ways for different people. Once you have the disease it has to be acknowledged can't just say "well i'm clean now"

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My understanding is that Narcotics Anonymous is anonymous, so how would you know if he went or not?

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

sangha said:

My understanding is that Narcotics Anonymous is anonymous, so how would you know if he went or not?

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I don't, all I know is what little reports I've seen. He was at the Sundance Film festival last year and said to some reporter "I am a heroin addict"- which is unusual in context - but you are correct.
It's just speculation on my part. I just haven't seen any reports he worked to maintain recovery.

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

annata said:

I don't, all I know is what little reports I've seen. He was at the Sundance Film festival last year and said to some reporter "I am a heroin addict"- which is unusual in context - but you are correct.
It's just speculation on my part. I just haven't seen any reports he worked to maintain recovery.

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I don't know. Alcoholics are always alcoholics even if they quit drinking, right?

Re: RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman

Fenton said:

He WAS a careless drug addict. In fact, the description " careless drug addict " is redundant.

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There are more functional addicts in the world than dysfunctional ones. The idea that you have to be down and out to be an addict is misinformed. There are addicts at all levels of society.

Fenton said:

HEROIN USE is a recipe for disaster and no, he doesn't get a pass becauss he shouldering the stress of. forrtune and fame.

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I agree that heroin is extremely dangerous. But his addiction did not start with fortune and fame. He was formerly addicted in college, and probably had addictive tendencies even before he tried drugs. Fame and fortune don't necessarily bring you closer to resolving your inner wounds. Sometimes it makes it worse.

Fenton said:

If there was ever a prime example for the continued prosecution of drug dealers and drug dealers, this is it.

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I don't see what the legalities have to do with this dead man. Clearly the law is not stopping even high profile people from accidentally killing themselves with drugs. How many people die of overdoses from drugs they were legally allowed to have? More than all the illegal ones combined. Do some market research and you will see that it's the war on drugs which is irrelevant here. Put aside the dogma and look at the hard facts.

Fenton said:

Drug addicts are selfish individuals. You mentioned his kids. He was kicked out of his home he shared with them because he was doing heroin.

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Well, he ended up in rehab before, so how selfish could he be? It takes courage to really face yourself and get clean. If he relapsed then it means his work wasn't finished, not that he is necessarily a selfish bastard. Most addicts relapse because there are mental health issues tied to the unhealthy dependence. If they get clean without debunking the core issues, then they are far more likely to end up back on drugs. It's why forced rehab is so unsuccessful. They have to want it. If PSH turned to heroin to cope with life's crap, then you can bet his mental health problems were somehow triggered again. Typical pattern.

Fenton said:

He knew how to get help, he knew there were people and doctors and proffesionals that could help, he could AFFORD that help but he chose the dope.

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We don't really know what he was thinking so this is speculative.

Fenton said:

I agree, drug addicts need help, but justifuing their self destructive behavior by claiming we should change our minds on the benefits of sobriety is counter productive.

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No one is arguing that sobriety is less desirable. Addicts also go through sober phases in an attempt to readjust reality, but it's the mental health issues and life circumstances which can easily draw them back in. Life can really suck and drugs are an easy go to because they feel blissful and euphoric.

What I'm trying to change your mind about is not the legalities, but that we should reserve judgment.

Fenton said:

Addicts don't need more excuses and justifications.

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No one is saying otherwise. In fact, excuses and justifications merely enable them further.

Fenton said:

They don't need to hear some nonsense like " its societies fault, and the war on drugs fault, not yours ", they need to hear the truth.

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Look... it's not about giving them some other way to shift the blame and avoid personal responsibility. It's asking people to understand the sources of addictions, addiction as MEDICAL DISEASE, and how being more compassionate yet NOT enabling would really go a long way to ending the isolation of addicts who want to get better.

Fenton said:

That if they continue they are going to DIE.

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Not always, but in a lot of cases yes. There 60-80 year old men still doing heroin from their days in Vietnam where they originally got into it. And on the flipside, there are first time users who die because the dose is wrong.

We need to end the arbitrary and pointless arguments about "what drugs are" and look at the scientific info, the historical info, and the wealth of research that shows what comprehensive harm reduction strategies can really do to turn things around.

I mean c'mon... if you go into any U.S. hospital with track marks or an infected injection site, you can be arrested then and there. Paraphernalia like needles? Same thing. Just how are tormented addicts supposed to come forward when the system is so harshly deterring them into hiding all evidence?

If you have to hide from help, then you go into hiding, and THAT'S when you die.