Amanda Knox found guilty of murder again by Italian Court

ChrisL · Feb 1, 2014

I'm wondering what the evidence was too. It seems like this case was a circus, the investigators screwed up, and I think there was insufficient evidence to begin with from everything I've heard. It's stunning that they would try this case again after the conviction was overturned on an appeal. WTH? I can't even believe any believes this is fair.

Manc Skipper · Feb 1, 2014

It wasn't retried. It's due process in Italy. That doesn't mean it's better or worse, just different.

SayMyName · Feb 2, 2014

DiAnna said:
...for misconduct basically felt in his gut that they had done it. That, and she was an American.

The deliberations after her arrest and her conviction had nothing to do with her being an American. It had more to do with her own actions before, during, and after the murder of Meredith Kerchner.

Viv · Feb 2, 2014

Ben K. said:
What? Seems like a situation where the "truth" acceptable to the family is only one in which she was raped by Guede as Knox and Solletica cackled maniacally in the background before Knox plunged the knife in.

Cos they weren't best mates or something....?

Sollecito. SOLLECITO.

Based on the evidence of your previous posts, the jury is still out regarding your grasp of the trial evidence.

solletica · Feb 2, 2014

Chatter said:
It should be noted that Cross contamination was ruled out by DNA Experts and the Italian Courts, and that there is significant DNA evidence therefore against Knox, who also continually changed her story during questioning including initially suggesting she was there and heard Meredith's scream to being far away from the scene with somebody else. At the police station after the murder she did cartwheels, smiled and kissed her boyfriend and has remained a very strange character through out. I also don't blame Meredith's Brother and Sister for wanting her extradited back to Italy if she is found guilty in the final appeal process.

The real victims in this case are Meredith's family in Britain, who will never see their much loved daughter and sister again. Although this is often forgotten.

The Murder of Meredith Kercher

True Justice For Meredith Kercher

Amanda Knox Weeps And Vows To 'Fight Till End'

:lol: First of all, Assange is no longer in London . No one could survive that long holed up in an embassy room--that's just a ruse to conceal his true whereabouts. He negotiated a flight out w/the UK govt. by threatening to reveal incriminating info on an influential individual (Lord, CEO, etc.) within the UK (or US). Most likely he's in Russia, but it's also possible he's in China.

As for Knox, legally she should be extradited if her conviction is upheld by Italy's Supreme Court. However, the US govt. has a reputation for routinely ignoring all international laws and treaties. ALL international treaties that aren't enforceable are meaningless.

Chatter · Feb 2, 2014

solletica said:
:lol: First of all, Assange is no longer in London . No one could survive that long holed up in an embassy room--that's just a ruse to conceal his true whereabouts. He negotiated a flight out w/the UK govt. by threatening to reveal incriminating info on an influential individual (Lord, CEO, etc.) within the UK (or US). Most likely he's in Russia, but it's also possible he's in China.

That's just an opinion rather than a fact.

solletica said:
As for Knox, legally she should be extradited if her conviction is upheld by Italy's Supreme Court. However, the US govt. has a reputation for routinely ignoring all international laws and treaties. ALL international treaties that aren't enforceable are meaningless.

Whilst I agree that Knox should be extradited, the US is a signatory in terms of mutual extradition agreements and can't just ignore them or others will merely do the same when America tries to extradite people, in this respect extradition is very different to international law. In terms of extradition, America tries to extradite far more people than most nations. Furthermore it is virtually unheard of for someone not to extradited on a such a straight forward murder case as compared to more complex highly political cases, and it will be seen as a snub by the Italian judiciary and indeed by many people in both Italy and indeed the UK.

It's one sided treaty in terms of the UK any way and I would be more than happy for the UK to scrap extradition the current treaty altogether.

Friends Extradited

Extradition Watch | Liberty - protecting civil liberties, promoting human rights

solletica · Feb 2, 2014

Chatter said:
That's just an opinion rather than a fact.

It's a logical conclusion--the UK govt. certainly doesn't care about honoring Ecuador's territorial integrity in an embassy, so that can't be the reason the UK won't arrest him.

Hence, the only way for Assange to remain free is to have an ace card. ANd if he had such a card, he would've made good use of it.

Chatter said:
Whilst I agree that Knox should be extradited, the US is a signatory in terms of mutual extradition agreements and can't just ignore them or others will merely do the same when America tries to extradite people,

The US does ignore treaties, and other countries treat the US in kind, i. e. Switzerland w/Polanski, Hong Kong w/Snowden, etc.

She won't be extradited for no other reason that it would be the end of Kerry's political career.

Chatter said:
in this respect extradition is very different to international law. In terms of extradition, America tries to extradite far more people than most nations. Furthermore it is virtually unheard of for someone not to extradited on a such a straight forward murder case as compared to more complex highly political cases, and it will be seen as a snub by the Italian judiciary and indeed by many people in both Italy and indeed the UK.

Chatter · Feb 2, 2014

solletica said:
It's a logical conclusion--the UK govt. certainly doesn't care about honoring Ecuador's territorial integrity in an embassy, so that can't be the reason the UK won't arrest him.

Hence, the only way for Assange to remain free is to have an ace card. ANd if he had such a card, he would've made good use of it.

Why do you keep going on about Assange and Britain, he's not really wanted by Britain. He's an Australian Citizen wanted for sex offences in Sweden under a European Arrest Warrant which Britain has to adhere to under European Law, apparently if he is returned to Sweden he fears the Swedes will extradite him to America for leaking US Secret Documents on his wiki-leaks website. He is supposedly still holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, which leaves Britain with an expensive policing bill having to put police outside the Embassy 24 hours a day. He hasn't done anything wrong in Britain and nobody cares if he goes, in fact most would welcome the fact that we would no longer have to keep paying for a ridiculous 24 hour policing outside a foreign embassy for a man who hasn't even done anything wrong in this country.

solletica said:
The US does ignore treaties, and other countries treat the US in kind, i. e. Switzerland w/Polanski, Hong Kong w/Snowden, etc.

She won't be extradited for no other reason that it would be the end of Kerry's political career.

Different countries have different treaties, the French won't extradite national citizens beyond the realms of EU agreements and certainly not to the US, however Italy and the UK have a very different extradition treaty to the Swiss and French.

Indeed what generally happens in terms of extradition treaties is what goes around comes around, and if the US starts refusing to extradite people, others will simply return the favour or even review extradition arrangements altogether. I would certainly be surprised if the Italians didn't take some action, given the way it's legal system has been portrayed by the US Media and the fact it's not usual for a criminal murder extradition to be refused.

Shadow Serious · Feb 3, 2014

Andalublue said:
In those countries where Double Jeopardy is not an absolute principle, it is nevertheless extremely difficult for the state to make a case unless new evidence comes to light.
Not even if new evidence is unearthed?

It would only encourage the attorneys to hold back some info so they can retry it again.

Shadow Serious · Feb 3, 2014

solletica said:
Which is why he's an idiot.

It is.

The whole purpose of justice in a rape is compensating the victim. So if the victim doesn't care, then it's waste of the public's time and resources for an elected official to prosecute, when there are more pressing cases waiting to be prosecuted.

The decision showed severe lack of judgement and maturity on the part of the prosecutor. Emphasis on maturity.

Nope, under our system of justice trials are not for the benefit of the wronged, but are for the general society to remove those members that have caused harm. Now Civil trials on the other hand are for the benefit of the wronged.

Shadow Serious · Feb 3, 2014

Red_Dave said:
The case for professional juries: exhibit A

He would likely be filtered out. Having jurors is a check that the People have on the Judaical branch and also on the Legislative when nullification is made.

solletica · Feb 3, 2014

Shadow Serious said:
Nope, under our system of justice trials are not for the benefit of the wronged, but are for the general society to remove those members that have caused harm.

And the extent of that harm is appropriately determined best by the victim.

OTOH, if victims are forced to testify against their will against those who hurt them, then fewer (not more) rape victims will report crimes.

The DA in this case actually doesn't care about justice. He's just a clueless, pathetic self-serving moron who wants international attention, even if it's at the expense of others (i. e. Samantha).

Ben K. · Feb 3, 2014

The curious case of the Italian legal system continues in which they hand out guilty verdicts but don't have to explain why until months after the fact. Yet the judge has decided to talk to the media, being a professional and all.

While not making any direct reference to a motive for the crime, Nencini emphasised the chance nature of the evening and reportedly stated: "If Amanda had gone to work, we probably wouldn't be here."

"I would not like the judge to be implying something else: that perhaps Raffaele, in order to have his innocence recognised, should have accused Amanda of the killing of Meredith Kercher," she told La Stampa

Amanda Knox case judge lambasted by Raffaele Sollecito's lawyers for remarks | World news | The Guardian

:roll:

What a joke.

Ben K. · Feb 3, 2014

Viv said:
Sollecito. SOLLECITO.

Based on the evidence of your previous posts, the jury is still out regarding your grasp of the trial evidence.

Deflecting to cover up your own ignorance of the case, eh?

Andalublue · Feb 3, 2014

Red_Dave said:
The case for professional juries: exhibit A

It was a professional bench of judges that convicted her, not a jury.

Red_Dave · Feb 3, 2014

Andalublue said:
It was a professional bench of judges that convicted her, not a jury.

I was referring to the previous comment, though yes that would appear to be a pretty significant counter example.

Andalublue · Feb 3, 2014

Red_Dave said:
I was referring to the previous comment,

I know. I just thought I'd point it out.

Shadow Serious · Feb 3, 2014

solletica said:
And the extent of that harm is appropriately determined best by the victim.

WRONG. The extent of the "harm" determined by how the laws are written and the evidence available.

OTOH, if victims are forced to testify against their will against those who hurt them, then fewer (not more) rape victims will report crimes.

The District Attorney Office makes a determination due to the willingness of the victim whether a case will go forward but yes they can be compelled to testify.

The DA in this case actually doesn't care about justice. He's just a clueless, pathetic self-serving moron who wants international attention, even if it's at the expense of others (i. e. Samantha).

I will say that the District has an obligation to bring him forward for trial or sentencing if possible. If you want to blame anyone for being an idiot than you should blame the judge for insisting that Polanski should had served time as opposed to the plea agreement. The subject of trial of Roman Polanski is Off Topic and I will not spend more time on his issue.

Shadow Serious · Feb 3, 2014

Peter Grimm said:
Canada's system is probably more pragmatic and fair than the American system, but Americans seem to think that our constitution was written by the hand of Jesus himself so you'll never get them to admit that.

The Constitution is the highest law in the land and is the base where all other laws are derived. This is the reason that it is given that level of consideration.

I never understood the cult-like reverence we have for our founding fathers and the constitution.

The Constitution was derived from negotiations that occurred just before its founding and are the limits and justifications for the existence of the Powers of government. A Constitution that is not adhered to is a Dead Constitution not a Living one.

It's just a legal document, for goodness sake. We are capable of making mistakes just like any other country.

Then it should be amended as it was intended instead of being ignored.

Shadow Serious · Feb 3, 2014

Peter Grimm said:
It's just a legal document. I agree with about 70-80 percent of it, the rest is crap.

I think there is room for improvement for the Constitution myself but it is more than just a legal document.

For instance, you ever hear of the 3/5 rule? That's where blacks were considered only 3/5ths human. That's right there in the American Constitution.

That is the nature of compromise the Southern States were not going to agree to ban slavery and there would not have been a United States of America otherwise. The same document also banned the importation of slaves starting 1808.

Sure, it was amended, but that's the point.

That is not the point. The point was that it was amended.

joko104 · Feb 3, 2014

She should be glad she was not arrested in the USA. For murder charges in most states the courts declare the US Constitution is suspended and they deny the right to post bail, for which effectively the person summarily found guilty without and trial or hearing and sentenced to a life sentence until in months or years the court holds a trial where at the government has to prove it was right to summarily put the person in prison and keep the person there or if being in prison for life is too long and the summarily imprisonment sentence is reduced from a life sentence. Being held in jail without bond is a life sentence until and unless it is later reduced. In the meantime, the person staying prison having been found guilty of exactly nothing.

She was allowed bail. She was not imprisoned prior to trial awaiting a trial to determine if she should be in prison, and the Italian government and legal system has shown far more interest in the justice in her case then is typical in the USA.

If she was arrested for the same offense in the USA, she would have been in prison this entire time and still would be.

Ikari · Feb 3, 2014

PeteEU said:
Time has been served according to the plea deal.

That was never officially accepted and ruled on. He skipped out before sentencing.

It's funny that you defend not extraditing to the US blaming the US judicial system, but if Americans say they don't want to extradite Knox because of the Italian judicial systems practicing double jeopardy, then all of a sudden it's unreasonable and dumb Americans being dumb.

I don't know if you could ever make a non-bigoted argument on America.

Shadow Serious · Feb 3, 2014

joko104 said:
She should be glad she was not arrested in the USA. For murder charges in most states the courts declare the US Constitution is suspended

The State Courts do not suspend the Constitution claming otherwise is just silly. :roll:

and they deny the right to post bail,

The Constitution does not guarantee a right to bail but forbids excessive bail (Amendment VII). One reason that bail can be denied is due to the accused being a flight risk or to be held for a mental evaluation.

for which effectively the person summarily found guilty without and trial or hearing and sentenced to a life sentence

They are not declared guilty nor are they sentenced to any term until the trial has come to a conclusion.

until in months or years the court holds a trial where at the government has to prove it was right to summarily put the person in prison

It might take a few months; any longer would be grounds for dismissal of the charges since the Constitution does require that a trial must be "speedy" (Amendment VI)

and keep the person there or if being in prison for life is too long and the summarily imprisonment sentence is reduced from a life sentence.

Actually, It would be the County Jail they would be locked up in. Prison is for the convicted.

Being held in jail without bond is a life sentence until and unless it is later reduced.

Again there is no sentence and bail is denied sometimes for reasons I mentioned. And it is not often used since the jail has to keep its numbers down to a reasonable level.

In the meantime, the person staying prison having been found guilty of exactly nothing.

People who stay in JAIL are awaiting trial or have been convinced of a misdemeanor in a trial.

She was allowed bail. She was not imprisoned prior to trial awaiting a trial

Then she wasn't a flight risk since her passport was taken and had to stay within the Italy if not the Provence she was to be tried.

to determine if she should be in prison, and the Italian government and legal system has shown far more interest in the justice in her case then is typical in the USA.

Some people here question whether she did get a fair and just trial or not.

If she was arrested for the same offense in the USA, she would have been in prison this entire time and still would be.

No barring a negative evaluation for mental health she would have gotten a reasonable bail amount. (She had no priors so I doubt bail would be denied.) Either she or her parents would have posted a bond if not the bail itself. And given that the Courts do not want the jails to take up room for the people who are accused she could have been placed at home arrest as an alternative option.

Bodi · Feb 3, 2014

TurtleDude said:
Of course she is going to be limited in foreign travel. Of course her bogus conviction is going to be appealed again.

After this crap I would never want to travel again, to be honest. Kick back at home...

PeteEU · Feb 4, 2014

Ikari said:
That was never officially accepted and ruled on. He skipped out before sentencing.

Because of the US judicial system.

It's funny that you defend not extraditing to the US blaming the US judicial system, but if Americans say they don't want to extradite Knox because of the Italian judicial systems practicing double jeopardy, then all of a sudden it's unreasonable and dumb Americans being dumb.

Then dont make extradition treaties with countries. My objection to extradition to the US is based on the pathetic US justice system and the very lopsided extradition treaties European countries have with the US. Now if my country or a country has an extradition treaty with the US, then I expect them to follow the law. I might not like the law, and might campaign against it and wanting it changed, but that does not mean the current law should not be followed.

The same goes for the US having to extradite to Europe. Chances are it wont happen simply because of the whole political process truimphing the legal process in the US on such cases, but like it or not, the US does have an extradition treaty with Italy and according to the law they should extradite her. Now that they most likely wont, just as they refused to extradite the CIA agents who committed crimes on Italian soil.. just shows yet again how arrogant and pathetic the US is towards its allies and international law in general.

I don't know if you could ever make a non-bigoted argument on America.

Amanda Knox found guilty of murder again by Italian Court

ChrisL

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member

SayMyName

Live, Love, Laugh.

Viv

Well-known member

solletica

Chatter

solletica

Chatter

Shadow Serious

Shadow Serious

Shadow Serious

solletica

Ben K.

Ben K.

Andalublue

Hello again!

Red_Dave

Libertarian socialist

Andalublue

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Shadow Serious

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joko104

Ikari

Shadow Serious

Bodi

Just waiting for my set...

PeteEU