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Amanda Knox found guilty of murder again by Italian Court

Andalublue said:
Should we judge the entire US judiciary on the basis of the OJ Simpson trial? Would that be fair?
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we have a saying here in the states

better ten guilty go free rather than one innocent be hung. I believe OJ was obviously guilty. The judge in that case was a joke and thus the guilty went free. But we didn't retry him.
 
Chatter said:
As compared to what the US Justice System. :shock:
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sadly for you the federal justice system in the USA is probably the best in the world.
 
TurtleDude said:
demonstrate you actually can discuss the issue. are you a licensed barrister in your nation?
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Hilarious - how can a country which has such blatant miscarriages of justice as O.J Simpson, Martin/Zimmerman, Joe Horn and numerous others claim to have the best judicial system in the world.

A country that changed the rules on international law to suit itself, denies people basic rights by shipping them to Cuba and which locks up a perversely large proportion of it's population, wrongfully executes people and is in the middle of a constitutional crisis regarding spying on it's own citizens, whilst demanding the likes of Edward Snowden be extradited, and who would dearly like to extradite Julian Assange.

it should be noted that whilst Amanda Knox is currently free and living in the US, the same can not be said of Cameron Todd Willingham, Johnny Garrett, Jesse Tafero or Carlos DeLuna, all of whom were executed over recent deacades in the US and who are now believed to have been innocent.

In terms of the US Justice system there have been numerous high profile cases of miscarriages of justice, and your justice system doesn't exectly fill the world woth confidence or have you forgotten high profile cases such as OJ Simpson, the Treyvon Martin Case or indeed the case of Joe Horn. There are also numerous cases of people being wrongly convicted in the US.

Documentaries such as 'Fourteen Days in May' (1987), 'Murder on a Sunday Morning' (2001) or John Grishams factual 'The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town' (2006) all offer interesting analysis in relation to the US Justice system, whilst those imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay have been subject to torture, have been force fed and have been denied due process. Which is a bit hypocritical given the US stance over human rights in relation to other countries, and the Chinese have been quick to point this out.
 
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TurtleDude said:
There has been no such significant new evidence produced in the Knox matter.
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The Knox-Sollecito case is not a case of double jeopardy. The trial that has just ended was a part of the original case. The acquittal of the two by the appellate court was set aside, and a new appeal ordered. At least, that's my understanding of it. The set-aside was argued on the basis of wrongful procedures during the acquittal hearing.

There's no doubt that all the elements of this murder investigation; the Guede-Lumumba confusion, the handling of evidence, the media manipulation and the whole international element have made this case a prime mess. Does all that mean a final conclusion can never be reached? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else here does either. This is a terrible situation for everyone, but it does jibe a bit that certain elements are trying to turn Knox into the victim of this. There's only one victim here, and that's Meredith Kercher.
 
Chatter said:
Amanda Knox has been before the Italian Courts, which is more than can be said for those at Guantanamo. It's Italy's system and there's an old saying 'when in Rome do as the Romans do'. The US signed an extradition treaty with Italy in which it adhered to it's criminal system. If you don't want people extradited or don't agree with a countries criminal system then don't sign such treaties.
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This is true, but not absolute.

It is quite common, here in Canada, not to honour extradition requests made by the US for fugitives who are charged with or convicted of murder if the potential sentence or sentence already given is the death penalty. Canada does not have or honour the death penalty. As such, this would be no different from the US not honouring an Italian request for extradition based on US law not honouring trials that expose a citizen to double jeopardy. I would not fault the US one bit for not apprehending and transporting Knox back to Italy.

That said, if Knox is foolish enough to travel to a third country that has an extradition treaty with Italy or is a member nation of Interpol, she will most likely be picked up and shipped off to Italy. At a bare minimum, third party countries will deny her access based on her criminal record and/or a desire not to get involved in a messy battle between the US and Italy.
 
TurtleDude said:
we have a saying here in the states

better ten guilty go free rather than one innocent be hung. I believe OJ was obviously guilty. The judge in that case was a joke and thus the guilty went free. But we didn't retry him.
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That's because you adhere to the double indemnity principle. Not everyone does.
 
CanadaJohn said:
This is true, but not absolute.

It is quite common, here in Canada, not to honour extradition requests made by the US for fugitives who are charged with or convicted of murder if the potential sentence or sentence already given is the death penalty. Canada does not have or honour the death penalty. As such, this would be no different from the US not honouring an Italian request for extradition based on US law not honouring trials that expose a citizen to double jeopardy. I would not fault the US one bit for not apprehending and transporting Knox back to Italy.

That said, if Knox is foolish enough to travel to a third country that has an extradition treaty with Italy or is a member nation of Interpol, she will most likely be picked up and shipped off to Italy. At a bare minimum, third party countries will deny her access based on her criminal record and/or a desire not to get involved in a messy battle between the US and Italy.
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Unfortunately extradition works both ways, and the Italians would be well within their rights to change the nature of it's extradition system with the US, especially given events over the last few decades. :shock:

CNN said:
Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz added: "As popular as she is here and as pretty as she is here -- because that's what this is all about, if

"The Italian legal system, though I don't love it, is a legitimate legal system and we have a treaty with Italy so I don't see how we would resist," he told AFP.

"We're trying to get (fugitive NSA leaker Edward) Snowden back -- how does it look if we want Snowden back and we won't return someone for murder?" he asked.

There is a valid extradition agreement between Italy and the U.S., but the U.S. has not set much of a precedence in returning suspects for such matters. Italians point to a number of high-profile cases over the years in which they say American suspects have been accused of wrongdoing and criminal acts, but have been let off lightly.

In 1998, an American military jet clipped a ski lift cable, sending a gondola of 20 passengers to their deaths in the Italian Dolomite Mountains.

Italian prosecutors wanted the crew of the jet tried in Italy, but an Italian court ruled they should face courts-martial in the U.S., in accordance with NATO treaties. The aircraft's pilot and navigator were found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter, even though the military admitted the plane had been flying lower and faster than authorized.

When it emerged that a video that captured the accident from inside the plane had been destroyed, they were dismissed from the Marine Corps. Italians were outraged, referring to the incident as the "massacre of Cermis."

In another incident that raised tensions, Egyptian cleric Abu Omar was seized off the streets of Milan in 2003 and smuggled to Egypt, where he says he was tortured and released four years later.

Although Italy did not request the extradition of any of the suspects, 22 CIA agents were convicted in absentia of the kidnapping and sentenced to prison time for their role in the abduction, but none ever served time in Italy.

Amanda Knox retrial verdict: Six things to know - CNN.com
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Furthermore :shock:

“America's extradition treaty with Italy prohibits the U.S. from extraditing someone who has been ‘acquitted,’ which under American law generally means acquitted by a jury at trial,” Dershowitz says. “But Ms. Knox was acquitted by an appeals court after having been found guilty at trial. So would her circumstance constitute double jeopardy under American law?”

The answer is uncertain, Dershowitz says. In the United States, appeals courts don’t retry cases and acquit defendants. Knox’s Italian lawyer has said the appellate acquittal doesn’t constitute double jeopardy under Italian law because it wasn’t a final judgment.

Would double jeopardy claim bar Amanda Knox's extradition?
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In terms of death penalty cases European Law and the laws of most nations that don't have capital punishment forbid extradition where the individual may be subject to torture or death.
 
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CanadaJohn said:
I mentioned Roman Polanski earlier, but what I forgot was the much more current name in the extradition circus news - Edward Snowden.
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and most of Europe blocked his entry which included using airspace.
 
TurtleDude said:
we have a saying here in the states

better ten guilty go free rather than one innocent be hung. I believe OJ was obviously guilty. The judge in that case was a joke and thus the guilty went free. But we didn't retry him.
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but have to respond to this - I spent a lot of time following the actual testamony of this trial and while people always had the "feeling" that OJ did it, the prosecution in the case was a complete cluster**** of incompetence and they did not prove the case against OJ. While the verdict was deemed to be racially motivated and a form of jury nullification, I had said to many friends and coworkers at the time, before the verdict, that OJ was going to be acquitted.

I would point out that you have been bashing the Italian justice system as incompetent and a joke and the OJ case and others (Casey Anthony comes to mind) may prove that in high profile cases, the microscopic focus the media places on the trial and evidence makes many trials seem like a joke.
 
PeteEU said:
Totally irrelevant what nationality she is. Her then boyfriend also got convicted and is in custody. The victim was British, why no compassion for her and her family?
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Compassion for the victim is not the issue. Compassion for Meredith goes without saying. This issue is a joke of a legal system and the selective outrage of some of you here, when criminals seeking shelter in Europe from U.S. justice go by without a mention from any of you. Hell, Knox may be guilty, but you would never know that based on the farce of a trial they conducted in Italy.
 
Andalublue said:
The Knox-Sollecito case is not a case of double jeopardy. The trial that has just ended was a part of the original case. The acquittal of the two by the appellate court was set aside, and a new appeal ordered. At least, that's my understanding of it. The set-aside was argued on the basis of wrongful procedures during the acquittal hearing.

There's no doubt that all the elements of this murder investigation; the Guede-Lumumba confusion, the handling of evidence, the media manipulation and the whole international element have made this case a prime mess. Does all that mean a final conclusion can never be reached? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else here does either. This is a terrible situation for everyone, but it does jibe a bit that certain elements are trying to turn Knox into the victim of this. There's only one victim here, and that's Meredith Kercher.
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Who's her family? Has she got an affluenza defense?
 
TurtleDude said:
BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. there was not even probable cause she is guilty.

Most euro nations have refused to honor extradition treaties to send a person back to the USA for a death penalty trial. That often involves AMERICAN nationals who have fled.

The Italian court system isn't just bad, its a complete joke. Every possible screw up I have ever seen in 24 years of reviewing federal criminal cases was made in the Knox case. Tainted evidence poor investigations, lack of a motive, ignoring obvious more probable suspects etc etc etc
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But, but, but....she's American! Its the once chance for a worthless country like Italy to get some payback for God knows what.
 
Wiggen said:
But, but, but....she's American! Its the once chance for a worthless country like Italy to get some payback for God knows what.
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It sure appears that's been a factor in this whole thing.
 
Wiggen said:
Hardly answers the question, does it? Which country has more individual freedom - at least as defined by a Libertarian - than the United States? Surely you can come up with one country for which you would abandon the repressive hellhole that you consider the United States to be.
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Do you believe Canada has less individual freedom than the US?
 
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