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Thread: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You don't seem to get it, but the recession ended in June 2009 long before those shovels ever got to those shovel ready jobs. The economy began the turnaround after TARP. Economists give their opinions, BEA and BLS present the facts. You want badly to believe Obama did something he really didn't do and the question is why? Shovels still haven't gotten to those sites around the country and apparently that fact escapes you

    Seems you have the same credibility as your so called experts. You do realize that I an post articles from other experts that disagree with you. You want data but have yet to show how the stimulus did what you claim it did in the time to bring us out of recession in June 2009. I await your response
    Actually, you don't seem to get it. Yes, economists give their opinions. In rendering their opinions they draw upon empirical data, including data collected by the BLS and BEA. They then interpret this data and render their expert opinions. Rather than research the issue find expert opinions, you chose to interpret the data yourself drawing upon your vast in training in economics (where did you earn you PhD again?) and offer a different opinion which you somehow try to sell as superior to those that teach economics at MIT, Cal, Stanford, Chicago, Harvard, Princeton. Pretty arrogant, don't your think?

    You say you have posted articles in the past? Let's see them....

    That all said, the original proposition was whether one had sufficient reason to argue the stimulus worked. That is pretty much prima facie based on what has been laid out already.

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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by PMZ View Post
    Apparently you and Forbes believe that 2009 was a fine year and we should have continued letting the country fall apart.

    I know that many enemies of America agree with that.

    But those of us in favor of an America, successful for everyone, don't.
    Apparently you live in a liberal utopia world where Obama took office, the oceans started receding, and the earth started healing all because of his rhetoric because it certainly wasn't his actions. Forbes laid out the results, you as usual ignored them just like you ignored the even worse results for unemployment, debt, and dependence in 2010 all generated by Obama and a Democrat controlled Congress

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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Actually, you don't seem to get it. Yes, economists give their opinions. In rendering their opinions they draw upon empirical data, including data collected by the BLS and BEA. They then interpret this data and render their expert opinions. Rather than research the issue find expert opinions, you chose to interpret the data yourself drawing upon your vast in training in economics (where did you earn you PhD again?) and offer a different opinion which you somehow try to sell as superior to those that teach economics at MIT, Cal, Stanford, Chicago, Harvard, Princeton. Pretty arrogant, don't your think?

    You say you have posted articles in the past? Let's see them....

    That all said, the original proposition was whether one had sufficient reason to argue the stimulus worked. That is pretty much prima facie based on what has been laid out already.

    Do you think spending 844 billion dollars is going to have any effect on the economy? You hitch your wagon to GDP numbers ignoring unemployment, under employment, discouraged workers, Debt. Forbes explained it to you but apparently you choose to believe what you are told by others.

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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    I usually wait for the Bad Lip Reading Theater version because it usually makes more sense:



    Bonus: Beyonce is awesome.
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  5. #285
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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    I'm gonna make a confession that may blow some people away. Ready for it? Here it goes.

    I understand the points Conservative has been trying to make concerning the Obama Stimulus of 2009. Truth be told, it didn't generate as much revenue via wealth creation in the private sector as say Reagan's economic policies did between 1983-1986 or GWB's direct-consumer stimulus of 2008. But here's where Conservative misses the mark completely: The Obama Stimulus wasn't designed to bring about rapid economic growth nor could it have. NOT because it was a bad plan because most economist say it didn't allocate enough money to really have a large impact in a short period of time. Rather, the Obama Stimulus was intended to "stop the bleeding" and by all accounts it did just that.

    Reagan's stimulus was through tax cuts and tax incentives mostly to the upper income brackets and through federal programs that forged public-private partnerships to build up the "military industrial complex". Overall, it did work to increase GDP, but it also did two other things which most Conservative Republicans refuse to acknowledge:

    1) Increased the poverty rate.

    2) Increased the debt and deficit.

    GWB's stimulus was intended to "prevent the current economic downturn from ballooning into an economic crisis". And while it did help briefly, we all know how things wound up. FINANCIAL CHAOS at the end of his Presidency. Not his fault, mind you. No one - not even our largest commercial investment firms - knew collectively just how bad things were (mostly because each too big to fail bank were too territorial, defending their own turf which aggressive and greedy competition within industries tends to do).

    So, along comes the Obama Stimulus which focuses more money on federal programs that Congress wanted. As I read (the bulk of) the Stimulus Bill years ago, I came to realize that a vast amount of the money went to:

    1) Government programs designed to get the money into businesses that forged public-private partnerships.

    2) States that foster government spending at their level.

    3) Private enterprises that conducted research and development for future industrial development and economic growth.

    Folks can visit Recovery. gov to see where stimulus money was allocated and spending took place in their state if they care to know. (BTW, Texas received ALOT! $15,602,390,000 worth and only created a reported 4,231 jobs. Just thought you should know.)

    My point is each stimulus plan was different and each sought a different kind of recovery. Moreover, each had different results. But regardless of the outcome, it's wrong to say that the Obama Stimulus didn't work because the truth is, it did! It may not have had the same results many Conservatives have come to expect from federal stimulus programs, i.e., rapid economic growth as reflected by an uptic in GDP, but it did work. (And yes, TARP (as restructured under Pres. Obama) helped alot, too).

    Now, back to the main focus of this thread, towit, the SOUA...Oh, wait. That topic morphed into "abuse of Executive Power"....my bad.

    Carry on. ...
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 02-03-14 at 11:36 AM.
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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by PMZ View Post
    Apparently you and Forbes believe that 2009 was a fine year and we should have continued letting the country fall apart.

    I know that many enemies of America agree with that.

    But those of us in favor of an America, successful for everyone, don't.

    And whom might you be speaking of here? I remember a time when sniveling progressives like you got their little panties in a twisted wad over the hint of being labeled unpatriotic for their political beliefs....Yet, it's ok for you isn't it? Remember this....?



    Now it seems that Hillary could be talking about conservatives couldn't she? In any case...We conservative are not the ones trying to 'fundamentally transform' anything. We aren't the ones telling other that disagree with them that they have 'no place' in their states. We are not the ones acting like children as they express 'if congress won't act with me, then I'll go around them'....

    I hope you puerile, petulant children are taking notes of the deplorable way that you are acting right now, because pay back is a bitch, and what goes around, comes around...And I don't think you're going to like it too much.
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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Now, back to the main focus of this thread, towit, the SOUA...Oh, wait. That topic morphed into "abuse of Executive Power"....my bad.

    Carry on. ...
    Actually, that was my comment originally. The overall topic is basically anything he said. The bigger problem even than the stimulus is the high level of overall spending that was locked in. From 2007-2009 spending when up by 30% and never went back down. So in a way, thats a trillion a year in stimulus, all borrowed. And its both partys fault. Stimulus may have stopped the bleeding (thats debateable, others say it was all the other measures taken prior to Obama by the Fed), but how much damage did it cost long term?

  8. #288
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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Objective Voice;1062876454]I'm gonna make a confession that may blow some people away. Ready for it? Here it goes.

    I understand the points Conservative has been trying to make concerning the Obama Stimulus of 2009. Truth be told, it didn't generate as much revenue via wealth creation in the private sector as say Reagan's economic policies did between 1983-1986 or GWB's direct-consumer stimulus of 2008. But here's where Conservative misses the mark completely: The Obama Stimulus wasn't designed to bring about rapid economic growth nor could it have. NOT because it was a bad plan because most economist say it didn't allocate enough money to really have a large impact in a short period of time. Rather, the Obama Stimulus was intended to "stop the bleeding" and by all accounts it did just that.
    And you started out so good but just couldn't resist falling back into brainwash mode. Let me remind you the Democrats controlled Congress from January 2007 to January 2011 thus the Obama stimulus was ready to go in February 2009. Obama proposed a 844 billion stimulus program getting everything he wanted and yet how much of that stimulus was spent in 2009? You want to give him credit for bringing us out of recession in June 2009 but fail to recognize that Obama himself said there wasn't such a thing as a shovel ready job

    Like far too many you ignore the components of GDP. One of those components is Govt. spending so what do you think is going to happen to economic growth when the govt. pumps 844 billion into the economy? There is your economic growth for 2009-2010, not the private sector which is the largest component and something you want to ignore

    The Obama stimulus was supposed to jump start the economy but rather it bailed out unions, gave targeted tax cuts that required certain consumer action, and was nothing more than a liberal spend fest that didn't do what it was supposed to or did it, liberals?

    Reagan's stimulus was through tax cuts and tax incentives mostly to the upper income brackets and through federal programs that forged public-private partnerships to build up the "military industrial complex". Overall, it did work to increase GDP, but it also did two other things which most Conservative Republicans refuse to acknowledge:

    1) Increased the poverty rate.

    2) Increased the debt and deficit.
    Did you even read the Forbes Article or any other article that presents a different opinion than yours? Obama has increased the numbers of people below the poverty level, he has set records for people dropping out of the labor market, he has supervised the reduction in payroll hours and massive increase in part time employment yet you want to blame Reagan for giving ALL FIT payers a tax cut and thus creating 17 million jobs? How many jobs has Obama created since the recession began? 146 million December 2007 to 144 million today almost 6 years later?

    Here is the data that you and others liberals want to ignore
    GDP Debt % to GDP Employment
    Reagan 1980 2.8 900 99.6
    1988 5.2 2.6 50% 116.1

    Bush 2000 10.2 5.7 137.6
    2008 14.7 10.6 72% 143.4

    Obama 2009 14.7 10.6 143.4
    2013 16.8 17.3 103% 144.5

    GWB's stimulus was intended to "prevent the current economic downturn from ballooning into an economic crisis". And while it did help briefly, we all know how things wound up. FINANCIAL CHAOS at the end of his Presidency. Not his fault, mind you. No one - not even our largest commercial investment firms - knew collectively just how bad things were (mostly because each too big to fail bank were too territorial, defending their own turf which aggressive and greedy competition within industries tends to do).
    TARP was a loan and was mostly paid back, where did that repayment show up in the deficit? Answer, it didn't so Bush got blamed for the TARP loans even though repaid but added to the deficit. What exactly did Obama do? Bailed out union contracts without giving the states the opportunity to do that, took over GM/Chrysler then selling Chrysler to Italy, paying for it out of tax dollars leaving bond holders and the taxpayers on the hook for billions. Yes, that is a liberal success.

    So, along comes the Obama Stimulus which focuses more money on federal programs that Congress wanted. As I read (the bulk of) the Stimulus Bill years ago, I came to realize that a vast amount of the money went to:

    1) Government programs designed to get the money into businesses that forged public-private partnerships.

    2) States that foster government spending at their level.

    3) Private enterprises that conducted research and development for future industrial development and economic growth.

    Folks can visit Recovery. gov to see where stimulus money was allocated and spending took in their state. (BTW, Texas received ALOT! $15,602,390,000 worth and only created a reported 4,231 jobs. Just thought you should know.)
    Yet we came out of recession in June 2009 long before anything Obama could have done got implemented and many are still waiting for those shovels to arrive

    Your post just goes to show how poorly you understand the U.S. economy, its components, and exactly what Obama did. Please show me the official govt. site that captures saved jobs? Obama took over an economy that had 143 million Americans working and today after adding almost 7 trillion to the debt it is 144 million. 146 million were working in December 2007 when the recession began. Millions have dropped out of the labor force today, setting records

    My point is each stimulus plan was different and each sought a different kind of recovery. Moreover, each had different results. But regardless of the outcome, it's wrong to say that the Obama Stimulus didn't work because the truth is, it did! It may not have had the same results many Conservatives have come to expect from federal stimulus programs, i.e., rapid economic growth as reflected by an uptic in GDP, but it did work.
    I guess by liberals standards high unemployment, high numbers of people dropping out of the labor force, high debt, stagnant GDP is the new normal, the European normal and a liberal success story

    Now, back to the main focus of this thread, towit, the SOUA...Oh, wait. That topic morphed into "abuse of Executive Power"....my bad.

    Carry on. ...
    Executive orders that change the laws created by Congress are a violation of the Constitution

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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Reagan vs Bush vs Obama

    Here is the Chart I posted above and explanation

    GDP Debt % to GDP Employment
    Reagan 1980 2.8 900 99.6
    1988 5.2 2.6 50% 116.1

    Bush 2000 10.2 5.7 137.6
    2008 14.7 10.6 72% 143.4

    Obama 2009 14.7 10.6 143.4
    2013 16.8 17.3 103% 144.5
    Reagan took over an economy with a 2.8 trillion GDP and took it to 5.3 trillion
    Reagan took over an economy with a 900 billion debt and left it at 2.6 trillion which is 50% of GDP
    Reagan took over an economy with 99 million working Americans and left it at 117 million working Americans

    Bush took over an economy with 10.2 trillion GDP and left it at 14.7 trillion
    Bush took over an economy with 5.7 trillion Debt and left it at 10.6 trillion of which 1 trillion according to the General Accounting Office was due to 9/11
    Bush took over an economy with 137 million working Americans and left it at 143 million

    Obama took over an economy at 14.7 trillion that is now 16.9 trillion
    Obama took over an economy with a 10.6 trillion debt that is now 17.3 trillion
    Obama took over an economy with 143 million working Americans that is now 144 million

    I can see which President has the liberal definition of success.

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    Re: Transcript: Obama's State Of The Union Address 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Reagan vs Bush vs Obama

    Here is the Chart I posted above and explanation



    Reagan took over an economy with a 2.8 trillion GDP and took it to 5.3 trillion
    Reagan took over an economy with a 900 billion debt and left it at 2.6 trillion which is 50% of GDP
    Reagan took over an economy with 99 million working Americans and left it at 117 million working Americans

    Bush took over an economy with 10.2 trillion GDP and left it at 14.7 trillion
    Bush took over an economy with 5.7 trillion Debt and left it at 10.6 trillion of which 1 trillion according to the General Accounting Office was due to 9/11
    Bush took over an economy with 137 million working Americans and left it at 143 million

    Obama took over an economy at 14.7 trillion that is now 16.9 trillion
    Obama took over an economy with a 10.6 trillion debt that is now 17.3 trillion
    Obama took over an economy with 143 million working Americans that is now 144 million

    I can see which President has the liberal definition of success.
    If debt was caused by dates this could be relevant. Alas, it's caused by policies like wars and tax cuts and great recessions.

    When you consider that plus the fact that % of GDP is the only relevant measure of national debt, the only President worse at creating it than Bush was Reagan.

    Conservatism is absolutely unaffordable in government, business and religion.

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