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Thread: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

  1. #21
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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Also, a few things on this since the standard talking point is the AMOUNT of executive orders. While some hard liners are the types that think EO's should not exist and are entirely unconstitutional, I believe most accept there is a certain amount of leeway there for the POTUS.

    However, SIMPLY looking at quantity is basically cherry picking a metric and isn't an honest response to the critism coming out, as it's somewhat losing the forest through the trees.

    If you have a basketball player putting up 25 shots a game and gets criticized for shooting so much, simply pointing to a previously player that shot 30 times a game doesn't singularly give it an excuse. Why? What was the old players shooting percentage compared to the new player. What TYPES of shots being taken, high percentage ones near the basket or threes? What was the makeup of the team around either, potentially necessitating a larger roll in shooting, etc.

    Same thing here, SIMPLY looking at the number of EO's alone is a poor reading of the frustration. The reach and extent of the particular EO's comes into play, ie what they actually do. The level of political interest in a paritcular topic matters to a degree (is it an EO on a contentious political issue hotly debated during the last election season, or is it some obscure bit of politicing that the public generally holds little real opinion on). Is it an action similar to, or a part of, something that was attempted to pass through the legislature and failed, and thus is more of an end around? And how have the various actions actually stood up in the court of law when challenged? Additionally, does the unilateral action extent even beyond the issuing of executive orders to other things, such as decreeing Congress to be "in session" when they decree they aren't.

    There's a lot of potential aspects and avenues to the issue here beyond simply the AMOUNT that has happened. This is also not a singularly republican issue, as you have Democrats like Alaskan Senator Mark Begich and West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin both voicing unease and disagreement with the President's actions and proposed actions.

    Exactly! Well put. It is like saying it is legal to steal from a convenience store because hundreds of people shop there every week.

    It isn't the act of executive order that is being disputed. The EO has to be pinned to some leeway given the president by congress in a law, or with regard to the administration of the executive branch. When you start talking, as Obama has, of using executive order in lieu of laws passed by congress he is expressly over stepping the EO authority.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Though its early, to their credit, no democrats here have chimed in in support of the president implementing his will over the will of congress. But something tells me this is much ado about nothing and mere chest thumping by our would-be tyrant in chief. If anywhere in the past 5 years there was something Obama felt he could accomplish through executive order, he would have done so already. So in the end, this is likely an empty threat from an empty suit.

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Exactly! Well put. It is like saying it is legal to steal from a convenience store because hundreds of people shop there every week.
    I don't really like the theft analogy because it interjects needless additional emotional cues into the debate, but if you're going to make one I don't believe what you pointed to was an accurate analogy.

    A better analogy for why simply pointing at the amount of EO's as the problem would be suggesting you have two criminals who steal things, one's only stolen 5 things and the other has stolen 15. If you're given ONLY numbers, it looks like the guy who did 15 is clearly worse. But then what if you say the person stealing 15 things stole a candy bar 15 times from Walmart, and the other person stole a big ticket items worth $100 from small downtown retail shops. Suddenly it's not such an easy question as to which is worse because other factors play into it.

    Similarly, the AMOUNT of EO's is only one aspect of the issue and can't singularly be pointed at as some kind of condemnation OR defense.

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    Though its early, to their credit, no democrats here have chimed in in support of the president implementing his will over the will of congress. But something tells me this is much ado about nothing and mere chest thumping by our would-be tyrant in chief. If anywhere in the past 5 years there was something Obama felt he could accomplish through executive order, he would have done so already. So in the end, this is likely an empty threat from an empty suit.
    Oh, it's not the first thread that the topic has been discussed, the president has plenty of partisan support.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I don't really like the theft analogy because it interjects needless additional emotional cues into the debate, but if you're going to make one I don't believe what you pointed to was an accurate analogy.

    A better analogy for why simply pointing at the amount of EO's as the problem would be suggesting you have two criminals who steal things, one's only stolen 5 things and the other has stolen 15. If you're given ONLY numbers, it looks like the guy who did 15 is clearly worse. But then what if you say the person stealing 15 things stole a candy bar 15 times from Walmart, and the other person stole a big ticket items worth $100 from small downtown retail shops. Suddenly it's not such an easy question as to which is worse because other factors play into it.

    Similarly, the AMOUNT of EO's is only one aspect of the issue and can't singularly be pointed at as some kind of condemnation OR defense.
    It is a perfectly fine analogy. Why we are talking about the EO at all is because there is a difference between legally well defined use of executive order and unconstitutional use of executive order.

    Many people using the convenience store for legal purposes is not a defense of people who use it illegally.

    You have created a new analogy which I didn't make. The original intent was to argue legal versus illegal use of a convenience, not varying levels of theft.
    Last edited by jmotivator; 01-29-14 at 12:29 PM.
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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    That idiot is insistent on pushing us towards revolt, isn't he.

    I guess on the plus side, if the GOP gains the Senate after November, then he is giving them plenty to act on to remove him by this time next year.
    Obama would for us to try and remove him. It would make all the other scandals take a backseat.

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Obama would for us to try and remove him. It would make all the other scandals take a backseat.
    Oh, if the GOP gets the majority in the Senate and maintains the house, the very first bill introduced will be impeachment against him.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    His increase in minimum wage for federal contracts should be interesting since Congress didn't appropriate additional funds to pay contracts with the new baseline.

    I don't think he really thought that one through.
    All that means since this applies to contracts not yet awarded, is the contractors take the hike in minimum wage into mind when bidding on a government contract. Really no big deal.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Oh, if the GOP gets the majority in the Senate and maintains the house, the very first bill introduced will be impeachment against him.
    The Left would have a field day tossing the race card about, whining about how cruel and mean the GOP is for trying to impeach, yet another, of their heros. Just the sort of going out bang Obama would love to see.

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    Re: Obama to Assert Unilateral Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Oh, if the GOP gets the majority in the Senate and maintains the house, the very first bill introduced will be impeachment against him.
    Doubt it.
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