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Thread: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Special Forces & Advisers =/= Occupation Force.
    Special forces troops! Occupying Libyan soil. DO NOT trivialize that fact, your trying to split hairs to legitimize going beyond the resolution. No, NO forces, of ANY FORM or PART of Libyan soil. NO BOOTS, NONE, NO BOOTS ON THE GROUND.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Changed that for you to make it more accurate. Let's not pretend a just and legitimate government was toppled.
    The only one pretending is another pro war, hawk that's pretending that Western powers didn't abuse their power, in violating the terms and intent of resolutions 1970 and 1973.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Sorry. But that is completely false. Do not categorize the UN as some ceremonial formality. It AUTHORIZED conditional use of force, conditions that the US and NATO failed to follow!!!!
    Well I do characterize the UN as a ceremonial formality personally, which isn't to say it isn't important. In this instance the UNSC authorization provided the necessary pretext for operations that were already morally and legally justifiable. Legally because a government doesn't need to go to the UN to invite foreign troops and support into the country. The United States, France, and Britain (among others) had all transferred diplomatic recognition to the TNG prior to the intervention.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The only one pretending is another pro war, hawk that's pretending that Western powers didn't abuse their power, in violating the terms and intent of resolutions 1970 and 1973.
    I'm not at all clear on what you are trying to say.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Special forces troops! Occupying Libyan soil. DO NOT trivialize that fact, your trying to split hairs to legitimize going beyond the resolution. No, NO forces, of ANY FORM or PART of Libyan soil. NO BOOTS, NONE, NO BOOTS ON THE GROUND.
    Being present =/= Occupying. The resolution did not forbid the presence of military personal and other specialists on the ground in Libya. Not that it matters either way, they were invited in by the government that most of them had diplomatically recognized as the legitimate one of free Libya. In any event the willingness of the international community to not allow the law to be used as a shield for dictators is very positive.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Well I do characterize the UN as a ceremonial formality personally, which isn't to say it isn't important. In this instance the UNSC authorization provided the necessary pretext for operations that were already morally and legally justifiable. Legally because a government doesn't need to go to the UN to invite foreign troops and support into the country. The United States, France, and Britain (among others) had all transferred diplomatic recognition to the TNG prior to the intervention.
    That's more apologetic bull ****. The government of Libya did not invite foreign troops into Libya. That would have been counter productive.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Being present =/= Occupying. The resolution did not forbid the presence of military personal and other specialists on the ground in Libya. Not that it matters either way, they were invited in by the government that most of them had diplomatically recognized as the legitimate one of free Libya. In any event the willingness of the international community to not allow the law to be used as a shield for dictators is very positive.
    No it's not, that too is false. Just because a few western powers with a deliberate agenda to overthrow the government of Libya decided to "recognize" the rag tag rebels made up of "freedom fighters" armed civilians, al Qaeda, etc., doesn't make them legitimate anything. The US and western powers VIOLATED the UN resolution authorizing use of force with restrictions, one of which was no boots on the ground on ANY part of Libyan soil and another of which was no supplying arms to the rebel fighters. Nor did the resolution have any language whatsoever authorizing the overthrow of the Libyan government. Russia was clear about this at the time, and this is why they vetoed any resolution for use of force in Syria. And there was no willingness of the international community, unless in your egotistical mind that the international community exists of western powers only. Several big countries opposed what was happening, including Brazil, China, Russia, India, and South Africa. And what law do you suggest shielded the Libyan government.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That's more apologetic bull ****. The government of Libya did not invite foreign troops into Libya. That would have been counter productive.
    Of course it did. The legitimate government of Libya (the TNC) and their representative at the UN both called for and eventually invited foreign assistance.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No it's not, that too is false. Just because a few western powers with a deliberate agenda to overthrow the government of Libya decided to "recognize" the rag tag rebels made up of "freedom fighters" armed civilians, al Qaeda, etc., doesn't make them legitimate anything. The US and western powers VIOLATED the UN resolution authorizing use of force with restrictions, one of which was no boots on the ground on ANY part of Libyan soil and another of which was no supplying arms to the rebel fighters. Nor did the resolution have any language whatsoever authorizing the overthrow of the Libyan government. Russia was clear about this at the time, and this is why they vetoed any resolution for use of force in Syria. And there was no willingness of the international community, unless in your egotistical mind that the international community exists of western powers only. Several big countries opposed what was happening, including Brazil, China, Russia, India, and South Africa. And what law do you suggest shielded the Libyan government.
    Nope. You aren't the arbiter of who a country chooses to recognize, moreover it was hardly just a collection of Western powers. The newly constituted legitimate government of Libya asked for foreign assistance and received it. Whether China or Russia recognized that government has no bearing on whether or not France or Qatar did. By the end of August most of Europe, the Arab League, and the rest of North Africa, not to mention the United States had switched recognition to the TNC. These countries provided much needed assistance in the defeat of the illegitimate dictatorial regime operating out of Tripoli. It is a crying shame that more support was not forthcoming to help established a firmer state in Libya after the operation came to a close. An international peacekeeping force and a civic development assistance fund would have been fantastic.

    As to your other point no I don't care about the 'international community' when it comes to the opinion of all concerned. I care about democratic hegemony and the creation of a democratic world order. The democratic powers have a right to behave hypocritically if it advances that agenda while simultaneously using international law as a leg iron to restrain the behavior and activities of dictatorial and illiberal regimes. This isn't about playing fair it's about winning.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Nope. You aren't the arbiter of who a country chooses to recognize, moreover it was hardly just a collection of Western powers. The newly constituted legitimate government of Libya asked for foreign assistance and received it. Whether China or Russia recognized that government has no bearing on whether or not France or Qatar did. By the end of August most of Europe, the Arab League, and the rest of North Africa, not to mention the United States had switched recognition to the TNC. These countries provided much needed assistance in the defeat of the illegitimate dictatorial regime operating out of Tripoli. It is a crying shame that more support was not forthcoming to help established a firmer state in Libya after the operation came to a close. An international peacekeeping force and a civic development assistance fund would have been fantastic.

    As to your other point no I don't care about the 'international community' when it comes to the opinion of all concerned. I care about democratic hegemony and the creation of a democratic world order. The democratic powers have a right to behave hypocritically if it advances that agenda while simultaneously using international law as a leg iron to restrain the behavior and activities of dictatorial and illiberal regimes. This isn't about playing fair it's about winning.
    That's a pittance of the countries in the world and did not make it legitimate and the only reason why its moot now is of course because in violation of the resolution to protect civilians, the Gaddafi government was overthrown.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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