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Thread: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    I can accept the idea the NTC **seemed** to be viable.
    It doesn't really excuse our behavior. It doesn't really change anything on the ground.
    no, but it does address why we intervened, at the time we did, and why other situations were ignored, like Iran.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    no, but it does address why we intervened, at the time we did, and why other situations were ignored, like Iran.
    are you referring to my earlier post "remember Neda?"

    neda-agha-soltan-soltani-angel-freedom-iran.jpg

    The World Mourns Neda - ABC News

    if so, did Obama actually criticize Iran for this?? I can't recall, but I don't think so.... all was needed was vehement condemnation. She still is an icon.
    Why I mentioned assassination of Qaddafi might have been an over-reaction ( this is unprovable , but my pet theory)

    I agree to an extent this is a factor in the intervention that morphed into regime change; still was way past any UN mandate, so we have to take full responsibility for Libya after Qaddafi

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    are you referring to my earlier post "remember Neda?"
    I think someone cited intervention in general


    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    I agree to an extent this is a factor in the intervention that morphed into regime change; still was way past any UN mandate, so we have to take full responsibility for Libya after Qaddafi
    It seemed most of the players involved were aiming and working towards regime change

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    one would think so, we went in way over any mandate then walk away. Not our problem except Bengazi, but that is just a campaign talking point by now.
    Absolutely.

    A foreign policy for fools.
    “No people can be both ignorant and free.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I think someone cited intervention in general
    It seemed most of the players involved were aiming and working towards regime change
    Germany joined in, most of the "players" dropped out by the endgame; leaving only Great Britain/US/France
    when Qaddafi was "regime changed" (killed). The war was too long for the rest of NATO to stomach

    To be fair, while the fighting has dragged on longer than anticipated, the death on Thursday of the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, gave senior Obama administration officials an opportunity to trumpet the new American way of war to a nation weary of ground combat in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    The United States military has spent just $1.1 billion in Libya, and in the words of Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr.,
    “didn’t lose a single life.” He added that “this is more of the prescription for how to deal with the world as we go forward than it has been in the past.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/22/wo...dafi.html?_r=0

    ^
    Biden here shills for the neocon Obama. "prescription" indeed.

    It got so bad during internal debates over whether to intervene in Libya in 2011 that Gates says he felt compelled to deliver a “rant” because the White House staff was “talking about military options with the president without Defense being involved.”

    Gates says his instructions to the Pentagon were: “Don’t give the White House staff and [national security staff] too much information on the military options.
    They don’t understand it, and ‘experts’ like Samantha Power will decide when we should move militarily
    .”
    Bob Gates vs. the White House « Commentary Magazine

    Gates memoir

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    Germany joined in, most of the "players" dropped out by the endgame; leaving only Great Britain/US/France
    when Qaddafi was "regime changed" (killed). The war was too long for the rest of NATO to stomach
    The countries that took an initial interest in supporting the rebels like france, the UK, UAE, Qutar, etc, all seemed on board to the end. Natural there were other who had a limited interest in a no fly zone, but they were people brought into the debate by states like France, etc pushing for Nato and UN intervention. And involvement was certainly represented beyond the US

    Biden here shills for the neocon Obama. "prescription" indeed.
    Obama is far from a neocon, and seemed more as someone responding to pressure from within his admin and the public. After all, he's not exactly known for his leadership qualities and someone that directs policy


    Gates memoir
    I'm not really following your point here

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Absolutely.

    A foreign policy for fools.
    I'm not sure anyone who reduces the issue to "jew banks" should be making comments about fools

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    The countries that took an initial interest in supporting the rebels like france, the UK, UAE, Qutar, etc, all seemed on board to the end. Natural there were other who had a limited interest in a no fly zone, but they were people brought into the debate by states like France, etc pushing for Nato and UN intervention. And involvement was certainly represented beyond the US
    most of NATO dropped out, as the war dragged on. I left out the Gulf States, as this was a NATO war.

    Obama is far from a neocon, and seemed more as someone responding to pressure from within his admin and the public. After all, he's not exactly known for his leadership qualities and someone that directs policy
    neocon :
    assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means

    Neoconservative - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    what else would you call Libya / Afganistan?
    I'm not really following your point here
    it was mostly to be a sidebar. Gates memoir is full of contradictions, but his views are worth the citations.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    take the point about not intervening doesn't prelude "something else" from happening.
    We know what happened because of Libyan war, there isn't a lot of good that came from it - I'd argue there was a lot of bad things that did come from it.
    And you'll get no argument from me that Islamists pour into a vacuum at current. This is a necessary step in the regions' political evolution. It is simply that those who take the presence of Islamist militia's and even terror groups and charge AHA! And without the US, none of THIS! are forgetting that the option that was realistically available was worse. welcome to the real world.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Without US intervention, Libya would still be whole today, and thousands of innocent dead people would still be alive.
    Are you aware of the history of the conflict that you are debating?

    1. Libya was already torn before the U.S. intervened. The "whole Libya" was already gone by the time we got there.
    2. Qaddafi intended to massacre an entire city, which is why we intervened. I see your thousands and raise you hundreds of thousands.

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