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Thread: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

  1. #211
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I think the uprising was geographic. But limited involvement in it does not translate into support for Qaddafi, the idea that people want him to remain in power, or that they don't support his removal. Like I said earlier, involvement could be limited for any number of reasons, besides there was no support for the rebels, including credible fear of retaliation from the regime and his success in addressing insurgents in the past and his ability to control the narrative in country
    well you pick one or the other in the real world, when the US/NATO intervened.

    It's fine to say the NTC was a geographical uprising, and I agree to some extent, though I wouldn't diminish the roles of Salafists, or the Libyan Fighting Group, or Ansar al-Sharia.

    If Qaddafi didn't have widespread support, then he was a dictator who did have enough support to stay in power.

    The point.
    We decided to intervene far beyond the term of the UN resolution - we decided, and by that I mean the US itself -on regime change.

    So the follow up cluter**** we left; we own it. You can't intervene to the point of taking sides in a civil war, and then just say "oh well, such is how it is"

  2. #212
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    this discussions stems from me pointing out that the reason people supported regime change in Libya was due to the fact that there seemed a real opposition movement was capable of dislodging Gaddafi, as opposed to Iran.

    So yeah, I'm still lost on what you are responding to
    again I have to disagree, the NTC was not "capable".

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    I'm still waiting for you to explain why you misrepresented my jihad quote
    If I've misquoted anything you've said, I apologize .. I don't need to mischaracterize anything or anyone to make a valid point about this issue.

    But here's the point you keep ignoring .. Libya has been destroyed and its citizens are FAR worse off today than before the clown cowboy rode into Libya.

    What you're defending is a human disaster.
    “No people can be both ignorant and free.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

  4. #214
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I long for the good old days of Gaddafi where planes blew up over the skies of Scotland...
    And nightclubs in Germany. Ah, back when decent people were in charge, before the mean ole U.S. decided to stop the massacre of an entire city...

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    If I've misquoted anything you've said, I apologize .. I don't need to mischaracterize anything or anyone to make a valid point about this issue.

    But here's the point you keep ignoring .. Libya has been destroyed and its citizens are FAR worse off today than before the clown cowboy rode into Libya.

    What you're defending is a human disaster.
    As Christopher Hitchens so ably pointed out, the problem with non-interventionists is that they often fail to account for the fact that in the absence of U.S. action, it's not that "nothing" happens. It is that something else happens.

    Without U.S. intervention, Libya would look like Syria, not Saudi Arabia.

  6. #216
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    again I have to disagree, the NTC was not "capable".
    " reason people supported regime change in Libya was due to the fact that there **seemed** a real opposition movement was capable of dislodging Gaddafi"

    And like I wrote earlier, before it became apparent Gaddafi was simply regrouping his forces, it appeared the rebels did have the upper hand

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    Educator BlackAsCoal's Avatar
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    As Christopher Hitchens so ably pointed out, the problem with non-interventionists is that they often fail to account for the fact that in the absence of U.S. action, it's not that "nothing" happens. It is that something else happens.

    Without U.S. intervention, Libya would look like Syria, not Saudi Arabia.
    Without US intervention, Libya would still be whole today, and thousands of innocent dead people would still be alive. The same is true of Iraq.

    Christopher Hitchens is a fool .. always has been.
    “No people can be both ignorant and free.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

  8. #218
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    As Christopher Hitchens so ably pointed out, the problem with non-interventionists is that they often fail to account for the fact that in the absence of U.S. action, it's not that "nothing" happens. It is that something else happens.

    Without U.S. intervention, Libya would look like Syria, not Saudi Arabia.
    take the point about not intervening doesn't prelude "something else" from happening.
    We know what happened because of Libyan war, there isn't a lot of good that came from it - I'd argue there was a lot of bad things that did come from it.

    Libya today is in very bad shape, this is a direct result of our intervention.
    One has to own this idea that the west destabilized a fairly stable country ( if despotic rule), allowed the rise of the militias, Bengazi,
    and assorted jihadist we assisted were already trained in Iraq.

    Jihadism's Foothold in Libya - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy

    LIBYAN JIHADISM BEFORE THE WAR

    Prior to the 2011 uprising, the country's main organized jihadist movement, the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, had already deradicalized and retired. Founded after the anti-Soviet jihad, the LIFG attempted to overthrow the Qadhafi regime in the mid-1990s but began to move away from armed conflict in 2006.
    In 2009, the group's shura council members -- some in Libyan prison, others in exile in Europe -- negotiated an end to conflict with the regime via Qadhafi's son Saif al-Islam.
    The minority that disagreed with that decision joined al-Qaeda in Pakistan, leaving no organized presence in Libya.
    Therefore, on the eve of last year's war, organized violent jihadism in Libya was more or less extinct

    In addition, Libya has become a transfer point for fighters from Western Europe and the Maghreb headed to Syria. News reports and jihadist sources suggest that some of these individuals have attended training camps in Misratah, Benghazi, the desert area near Hon, and Green Mountain in the east, though the accuracy of these reports is unknown

  9. #219
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Without US intervention, Libya would still be whole today, and thousands of innocent dead people would still be alive. The same is true of Iraq.

    Christopher Hitchens is a fool .. always has been.
    one would think so, we went in way over any mandate then walk away. Not our problem except Bengazi, but that is just a campaign talking point by now.

  10. #220
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    " reason people supported regime change in Libya was due to the fact that there **seemed** a real opposition movement was capable of dislodging Gaddafi"
    And like I wrote earlier, before it became apparent Gaddafi was simply regrouping his forces, it appeared the rebels did have the upper hand
    I can accept the idea the NTC **seemed** to be viable.
    It doesn't really excuse our behavior. It doesn't really change anything on the ground.

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