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Thread: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I long for the good old days of Gaddafi where planes blew up over the skies of Scotland...
    I think you miss the point. Nobody supports dictators or the human rights abuses that dictators sometimes perpetrate on their citizens (well actually, governments sometimes do if it serves some "interest") the point is being made that Libya hasn't the stability it had pre US/NATO intervention.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    True. He was a discrete kind of murderer and less the kidnapping kind with foreigners. mostly.
    Yes, and he had control of his country. It's somewhat out of control now, as is Iraq as is Syria as is Egypt. You see the pattern? Things are not better in the region after more than a decade of US aggression and interference.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    What are you talking about, UN norms??? The US secured a resolution at the UN to use military force to protect civilians, that's it. That resolution was abused by the Obama administration and used to overthrow the Libyan government. I don't know why your having difficulty with that. And no, I don't think any governments should use their military force to "crush resistance". But I can assure you that if there were ever a civilian armed resistance to our government, they would use military force to repel it, don't think for a minute that they wouldn't.
    Don't get me wrong. Obama is not my favorite president. And be it from me to say his foreign policy were good. But I think he got this one relatively right. But that you do not know what norms the UN applied to the situation I am unwilling to believe.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Right, so your diminishing the chaotic state of affairs in Libya in order to defend the US interference, I mean I'm not surprised.
    The US didn't interfere, alone. If France hadn't been chomping at the bit to intervene, Obama probably wouldn't have touched it with a 10-foot pole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Suffice to say, intervention in Libya was immoral, criminal, unethical, criminal, unconscionable, and criminal. If anyone thinks otherwise, they been sucking on the Kool-aid stick too long. Nothing said here will counter their successful mind bending and they even think they are patriots. Maroons.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yes, and he had control of his country. It's somewhat out of control now, as is Iraq as is Syria as is Egypt. You see the pattern? Things are not better in the region after more than a decade of US aggression and interference.
    Oh, yes. It is less than smooth. But that is par for this course. Everyone knows that the transition from dictator to dictator can be messy and often is. It is the same for the period of replacement of a dictator by a democracy and sometimes it doesn't even work. So where is the advantage, you are probably asking.

    Well, it is like this. Once you have a democracy the later transitions I are usually much less brutal.

    That is not the most important reason to go for the democracy. But it is one of them that fits to the context.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I think you miss the point. Nobody supports dictators or the human rights abuses that dictators sometimes perpetrate on their citizens (well actually, governments sometimes do if it serves some "interest") the point is being made that Libya hasn't the stability it had pre US/NATO intervention.
    Ghadaffi was using his military to kill his own people. Is that what you call "stability"? The problem now is radical groups that are trying to make it a religious state. The Saudi's are more to blame for Libya instability now than the US. Iran is similarly to blame for the renewed sectarian violence in Iraq. The difference in Libya was our level of involvement. Was it worth 4000 lives and a trillion dollars to hand Iraq to the Iranians? No. Was it worth a few airstrikes to stop the slaughter of civilians in Libya? Easily, even with the risk of further "instability" which is always present when a regime is overthrown.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Don't get me wrong. Obama is not my favorite president. And be it from me to say his foreign policy were good. But I think he got this one relatively right. But that you do not know what norms the UN applied to the situation I am unwilling to believe.
    Obviously you're not familiar with the resolution. So Obama abused the UN resolution, and in your opinion, he got this one right. That's typical for a hawk.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You don't think the UN should enforce its own norms? And you think dictators should be allowed to use lethal military force to crush resistance against them?
    The UN is only concerned with how much their peace keeping forces have to pay for bananas.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Ghadaffi was using his military to kill his own people. Is that what you call "stability"? The problem now is radical groups that are trying to make it a religious state. The Saudi's are more to blame for Libya instability now than the US. Iran is similarly to blame for the renewed sectarian violence in Iraq. The difference in Libya was our level of involvement. Was it worth 4000 lives and a trillion dollars to hand Iraq to the Iranians? No. Was it worth a few airstrikes to stop the slaughter of civilians in Libya? Easily, even with the risk of further "instability" which is always present when a regime is overthrown.
    That's not what I was referring to dude! There was stability before the Arab Spring. Would you tell me that were an "Arab Spring" scenario to arrive in the US with armed civilians, do you suppose the government would step down, or repel it??? The bottom line in this is that the US abused its authority and power, again, violating the UN resolution, overthrowing the government. This is one reason why we were denied a resolution for use of force in Syria! Russians weren't going to play that game again.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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