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Thread: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

  1. #121
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The US secured a resolution at the UN to use military force to protect civilians, that's it. That resolution was abused by the Obama administration and used to overthrow the Libyan government.
    Gaddafi claimed he would implement the UN-mandated ceasefire but never did, and instead blew smoke at the rebels, promising terrible vengeance. War crimes against civilians were a given tactic of his (he used civilian hospitals as shields for his troops). He was the primary obstacle to peace, and like Milosevic during the Kosovo intervention, he and his regime needed to be whipped into submission. At least Slobo was smart enough to eventually give up and go with the ICTY; Gaddafi probably believed he had taken the right course of action right up until he died.

    Also, I'm not sure why you place so much stock in Russian and Chinese opinion on the Libya. First, they're at least as driven by economic and imperial interests as we are, if not much more. Second, we factor international law into our decisions - Russia cited a treaty and "coalition" (or council; I forget what it was called at the moment) that they had previously bullied Georgia into through their Ossetian puppet rebels and in which they unfairly outnumbered Georgia by 3:1 to justify their occupation and invasion of a sovereign nation. In any case, Georgia had no hope of taking their case to the Russian-dominated Security Council. When they had the audacity to reassert their territorial integrity by force in response to Ossetian militia firing upon them, Putin invaded unilaterally and bombed Tbilisi until Georgia couldn't fight anymore. Did the Russians at any point even ask the United Nations for permission to do this? They did not, and they wouldn't because they're the ones who truly bend international law to suit imperial designs, not us. Similarly, China refuses to let the United Nations deal with North Korea, and they simply declared their possession over islands that they haven't occupied since the Qing Dynasty because of the presence of resources (oil?) around those islands.

    So they really have no right to be lecturing us about obeying international law, and their expansionist hypocrisy should not be taken as a legitimate opinion when we decide our foreign policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  2. #122
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Gaddafi claimed he would implement the UN-mandated ceasefire but never did, and instead blew smoke at the rebels, promising terrible vengeance. War crimes against civilians were a given tactic of his (he used civilian hospitals as shields for his troops). He was the primary obstacle to peace, and like Milosevic during the Kosovo intervention, he and his regime needed to be whipped into submission. At least Slobo was smart enough to eventually give up and go with the ICTY; Gaddafi probably believed he had taken the right course of action right up until he died.

    Also, I'm not sure why you place so much stock in Russian and Chinese opinion on the Libya. First, they're at least as driven by economic and imperial interests as we are, if not much more. Second, we factor international law into our decisions - Russia cited a treaty and "coalition" (or council; I forget what it was called at the moment) that they had previously bullied Georgia into through their Ossetian puppet rebels and in which they unfairly outnumbered Georgia by 3:1 to justify their occupation and invasion of a sovereign nation. In any case, Georgia had no hope of taking their case to the Russian-dominated Security Council. When they had the audacity to reassert their territorial integrity by force in response to Ossetian militia firing upon them, Putin invaded unilaterally and bombed Tbilisi until Georgia couldn't fight anymore. Did the Russians at any point even ask the United Nations for permission to do this? They did not, and they wouldn't because they're the ones who truly bend international law to suit imperial designs, not us. Similarly, China refuses to let the United Nations deal with North Korea, and they simply declared their possession over islands that they haven't occupied since the Qing Dynasty because of the presence of resources (oil?) around those islands.

    So they really have no right to be lecturing us about obeying international law, and their expansionist hypocrisy should not be taken as a legitimate opinion when we decide our foreign policy.
    As is the case in nearly every confrontation (war) my criticisms have very little to do with the why (although, I check that as well) but the how. If a thing is right, if it has merit, if there isn't underlying ulterior motive and or advantage, present the "facts" as they may be and let Americans decide, leaving out, hype, exaggeration, and even lies. This is where I focus my criticisms. As to China and Russia's own motives, sure they have reasons for not wanting to see the US destabilize this region. Whether or not there criticism is based on humanitarianism or not. I don't have as much of a problem with the US imperialism, hegemony, and aggressive foreign policy if its owned up to and admitted. My problem is the smoke that's blown up people's asses that America is a shinning city on a hill, the defender and promoter of democracy and protector of humanitarian rights. For lots of reasons, but in this particular case, while there was so much handwringing over alleged mass rape and torture, something that AI was on the ground at the time saying not only was there no evidence, there were at times examples of the rebels making up lies at the time to gain support. At about the same time we had a similar, popular citizen uprising in Bahrain that received no State Department outcry, and worse, for Saudi support in Libya, we looked the other way when they went in to crush that uprising. So we have a credibility problem, at least.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yep! Obama has been teaming up with al Qaeda elsewhere s in the region, too!
    Without question he has .. and will continue to do so. Obama conducts the Bush foreign policy on steroids. America is now considered the most dangerous nation on the planet .. under the Nobel Peace prize Winner for .. :0) Peace.

    What a joke that would be if it wasn't for the horrors of Obama's draconian policies that have absolutely failed.

    Had it not been for Putin, Obama was preparing to use his Al Wueda posse to destroy Syria just as he did Libya.
    “No people can be both ignorant and free.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Correct, and neither Doctors Without Borders, or Amnesty International found evidence of widespread rape, torture and killing as reported by Obama. They said often the claims were outright discredited. This is why I can't understand how people fail to see the connection made by Russia who saw clearly that the allegations were false, they had been monitoring events on the ground via satellite and said they too saw no evidence of the claims. They also pointed out that we were targeting structures with high levels of civilians in or nearby, and, that instead of just protecting a no fly zone, the coalition was targeting the Gaddafi government. And this leads directly to the reason that Russia and China vetoed all attempts by the US to secure a resolution to use force in Syria, the US can't be trusted!!
    Simple question .. why Benghazi?

    Benghazi has long been known as THE hotbed for international terrorism by intelligence agencies all over the world. It's where Al Queda called home. It's where most of the foreign fighters in Iraq came from.

    West Point CTC's Al-Qa'ida's Foreign Fighters in Iraq
    West Point CTC's Al-Qa'ida's Foreign Fighters in Iraq

    search on the Sinjar Records

    Why could Obama and Hillary Clinton become so comfortable with the organization that was supposedly behind 9/11 that they would end up all sleeping in the same bed?
    “No people can be both ignorant and free.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Gaddafi claimed he would implement the UN-mandated ceasefire but never did, and instead blew smoke at the rebels, promising terrible vengeance. War crimes against civilians were a given tactic of his (he used civilian hospitals as shields for his troops). He was the primary obstacle to peace, and like Milosevic during the Kosovo intervention, he and his regime needed to be whipped into submission. At least Slobo was smart enough to eventually give up and go with the ICTY; Gaddafi probably believed he had taken the right course of action right up until he died.

    Also, I'm not sure why you place so much stock in Russian and Chinese opinion on the Libya. First, they're at least as driven by economic and imperial interests as we are, if not much more. Second, we factor international law into our decisions - Russia cited a treaty and "coalition" (or council; I forget what it was called at the moment) that they had previously bullied Georgia into through their Ossetian puppet rebels and in which they unfairly outnumbered Georgia by 3:1 to justify their occupation and invasion of a sovereign nation. In any case, Georgia had no hope of taking their case to the Russian-dominated Security Council. When they had the audacity to reassert their territorial integrity by force in response to Ossetian militia firing upon them, Putin invaded unilaterally and bombed Tbilisi until Georgia couldn't fight anymore. Did the Russians at any point even ask the United Nations for permission to do this? They did not, and they wouldn't because they're the ones who truly bend international law to suit imperial designs, not us. Similarly, China refuses to let the United Nations deal with North Korea, and they simply declared their possession over islands that they haven't occupied since the Qing Dynasty because of the presence of resources (oil?) around those islands.

    So they really have no right to be lecturing us about obeying international law, and their expansionist hypocrisy should not be taken as a legitimate opinion when we decide our foreign policy.
    If what you suggest was even remotely true, why would the Libyan people overwhelmingly support Gaddafi against the Al Queda 'rebels?'

    Are you aware the the UN was about to bestow an award for human rights on Gaddafi?

    Are you aware that Libyan women had more freedom then Arab/Muslim women throughout the Arab world?

    Are you aware that Libyans got more from their government then you get from yours?

    Did you know that Mandela and African leaders throughout the continent adored Gaddafi .. and do you know why?

    Do you have cradle-to-grave free healthcare and education?
    “No people can be both ignorant and free.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

  6. #126
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Without question he has .. and will continue to do so. Obama conducts the Bush foreign policy on steroids. America is now considered the most dangerous nation on the planet .. under the Nobel Peace prize Winner for .. :0) Peace.

    What a joke that would be if it wasn't for the horrors of Obama's draconian policies that have absolutely failed.

    Had it not been for Putin, Obama was preparing to use his Al Wueda posse to destroy Syria just as he did Libya.
    I mean that is so obvious!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I mean that is so obvious!
    Obama’s Move to Arm Al Qaeda in Syria

    On Monday, twelve years and five days after al Qaeda precipitated the worst domestic attack in modern history, President Obama waived two sections of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), allowing him to provide military assistance to “vetted” rebel grips in Syria. Though the AECA was designed to prevent arming terrorists, Obama announced that he had the authority to ”waive the prohibitions in sections 40 and 40(a) of the AECA related to such a transaction.”

    Section 40, “Transactions With Countries Supporting Acts of International Terrorism,” and Section 40(a), “Prohibited Transactions by the United States Government,” ban sending munitions to any nation described in Section 40 (d), “Countries Covered by Prohibition:” ”The prohibitions contained in this section apply with respect to a country if the Secretary of State determines that the government of that country has repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism.” Section 40(g), “Waiver,” grants the president the power to waive these provisions if he determines “the transaction is essential to the national security interest of the United States.” The same section requires the president to give Congress the name of any country involved in the proposed transaction, the identity of any recipient of the items to be provided pursuant to the proposed transaction, and the anticipated use of those items” at least 15 days before the transaction takes place.

    more
    Obama’s Move to Arm Al Qaeda in Syria | FrontPage Magazine
    “No people can be both ignorant and free.”
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Obama’s Move to Arm Al Qaeda in Syria

    On Monday, twelve years and five days after al Qaeda precipitated the worst domestic attack in modern history, President Obama waived two sections of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), allowing him to provide military assistance to “vetted” rebel grips in Syria. Though the AECA was designed to prevent arming terrorists, Obama announced that he had the authority to ”waive the prohibitions in sections 40 and 40(a) of the AECA related to such a transaction.”

    Section 40, “Transactions With Countries Supporting Acts of International Terrorism,” and Section 40(a), “Prohibited Transactions by the United States Government,” ban sending munitions to any nation described in Section 40 (d), “Countries Covered by Prohibition:” ”The prohibitions contained in this section apply with respect to a country if the Secretary of State determines that the government of that country has repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism.” Section 40(g), “Waiver,” grants the president the power to waive these provisions if he determines “the transaction is essential to the national security interest of the United States.” The same section requires the president to give Congress the name of any country involved in the proposed transaction, the identity of any recipient of the items to be provided pursuant to the proposed transaction, and the anticipated use of those items” at least 15 days before the transaction takes place.

    more
    Obama’s Move to Arm Al Qaeda in Syria | FrontPage Magazine
    I see! I suppose this is some of that new found power of his pen and phone to by-pass congress. I'm telling ya, the whole "war on terror" bull**** is just sick, a travesty that America is not going to get away with.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #129
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    Obama’s Move to Arm Al Qaeda in Syria

    On Monday, twelve years and five days after al Qaeda precipitated the worst domestic attack in modern history, President Obama waived two sections of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), allowing him to provide military assistance to “vetted” rebel grips in Syria. Though the AECA was designed to prevent arming terrorists, Obama announced that he had the authority to ”waive the prohibitions in sections 40 and 40(a) of the AECA related to such a transaction.”

    Section 40, “Transactions With Countries Supporting Acts of International Terrorism,” and Section 40(a), “Prohibited Transactions by the United States Government,” ban sending munitions to any nation described in Section 40 (d), “Countries Covered by Prohibition:” ”The prohibitions contained in this section apply with respect to a country if the Secretary of State determines that the government of that country has repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism.” Section 40(g), “Waiver,” grants the president the power to waive these provisions if he determines “the transaction is essential to the national security interest of the United States.” The same section requires the president to give Congress the name of any country involved in the proposed transaction, the identity of any recipient of the items to be provided pursuant to the proposed transaction, and the anticipated use of those items” at least 15 days before the transaction takes place.

    more
    Obama’s Move to Arm Al Qaeda in Syria | FrontPage Magazine
    you're quoting front page magazine, a publication I'm sure montecristo and yourself would easily recognize the faults with if we were discussing any other subject. And while I question the rational of supporting the Libyan opposition, the idea of citing popularity figures for Gaddafi in territory he held is rather mung headed given his style of rule. The same with citing his popularity among african leaders. Being that he was known as a revolutionary force and supporter, much like Castro (who mandela also supported). And such popularity doesn't translate to the idea that he was a just leader of his people.

    And while he did take an iron hand approach to addressing jihadists within his country, he did the same to any opposition force, be it socialist, democratic, or anarchist. He was a violent dictator, no questions about it. And that hardly changes due to the fact that he spent some of the oil wealth, that he used to fuel an insanely extravagant lifestyle and considered little more than his own personal piggy bank, to deliver health care to his preferred populations

  10. #130
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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAsCoal View Post
    If what you suggest was even remotely true, why would the Libyan people overwhelmingly support Gaddafi against the Al Queda 'rebels?'

    Are you aware the the UN was about to bestow an award for human rights on Gaddafi?

    Are you aware that Libyan women had more freedom then Arab/Muslim women throughout the Arab world?

    Are you aware that Libyans got more from their government then you get from yours?

    Did you know that Mandela and African leaders throughout the continent adored Gaddafi .. and do you know why?

    Do you have cradle-to-grave free healthcare and education?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    I am an international leader, the dean of the Arab rulers, the king of kings of Africa and the imam of Muslims, and my international status does not allow me to descend to a lower level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    Lincoln was a man who created himself from nothing without any help from outside or other people. I followed his struggles. I see certain similarities between him and me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    I am not going to leave this land. I will die as a martyr at the end. I shall remain, defiant. Muammar is Leader of the Revolution until the end of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    I am a Bedouin warrior who brought glory to Libya and will die a martyr.
    Muammar Gaddafi - Wikiquote
    Do these look like statements that a mentally healthy person would make, let alone a leader of a "free" country? Gaddafi was a bat**** crazy narcissist, infatuated with himself till the very end, very much like Hitler. His delusions led him to believe he was a leader in an Islamic revolution against the evil West (sound familiar?), and so he supported international terrorism and even blew up a plane over Scotland. He was a sick creep, and a self-admitted enemy of the US, and so we had the right to do whatever we wanted to him - including supporting a transitional council that is now taking its turn in fighting al-Qaeda.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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