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Thread: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Man, have you no understanding of international law, and what UN membership even means. Your pro-war mentality is hawkish to the point you want to use our military anywhere the president says we need to, and without question. You need to start paying closer attention. Presidents, for a very long time have used deceit, intrigue, and every manner of false flag events, lies and accusations, whatever has been necessary to gain public support for war that has little to do with human rights and much to do with corporatism. You must always look beyond the smoke to find what's really at the heart of US military campaigns, stop being naive.
    I have an ample understanding of international law, I just don't hold it at a sacred alter of esteem. It is a tool to be used to produce norms that constrain autocrats and illiberal regimes and a cudgel that can suppress them.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What? No they didn't. Amnesty International had long been a leading critic of the Gaddafi regime. It's findings in individual investigations are not indicative of its position on the general outlook.
    As we've seen all too often in the past, but some people NEVER learn, is the specific charges, at the time, being used to force a no fly zone, hadn't the merit as I presented in an earlier post.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I have an ample understanding of international law, I just don't hold it at a sacred alter of esteem. It is a tool to be used to produce norms that constrain autocrats and illiberal regimes and a cudgel that can suppress them.
    That may be how you wish to use and abuse international law, which is very pathetic. In essence, if international supports your agenda its relevant and if not, to hell with it. But there's a lot of people that don't feel that way about it.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Easy for you to say. The countries that are irrelevant must of course be the countries that oppose the action. Isn't that always the way this game is played? You're young I recall and haven't seen enough of it, but of older Americans, I just wonder when they are going to tire of being lied into wars that have as their basis a completely different agenda then the spoken? Trumped up allegations of rape and torture to gin up public support for another war of aggression.


    Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato’s war in Libya.

    Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since the start of the insurrection on 15 February, claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

    An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them. It also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.


    Amnesty International: No Evidence Of Rape By Gaddafi Forces | Viva Libya !

    Amnesty questions claim that Gaddafi ordered rape as weapon of war - Africa - World - The Independent
    No one claims Gaddafi used gunships, mercenaries, and military force against the opposition including demonstrators. No one claims Gaddafi had underground prisons and torture facilities. No one claims Gaddafi was a tyrant who ruled his country with an iron fist for 42 years. We know he did and was these things. Whether or not Amnesty International can verify that he specifically used rape as a weapon of war is not relevant to the wider point. This is the tactic people like yourself use, the general evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the prevailing narrative so you limit yourself to cherry picked examples to salve your conscience and position. No matter what though you are on the side of a dictator.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    As we've seen all too often in the past, but some people NEVER learn, is the specific charges, at the time, being used to force a no fly zone, hadn't the merit as I presented in an earlier post.
    Yes they did. Gaddafi was bombarding cities and at the time was about to launch an assault on Benghazi.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    NATO killed an estimated 40 civilians, Gaddafi killed thousands upon thousands. More than 700 were killed in Misrata alone when Gaddafi sent his troops to bombard and besiege the city in the months before the NATO intervention.
    HRW reports twice that figure, with athe qualifier that not all victims have been accounted for.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That may be how you wish to use and abuse international law, which is very pathetic. In essence, if international supports your agenda its relevant and if not, to hell with it. But there's a lot of people that don't feel that way about it.
    Pretty much. Up with democratic hegemony, down with dictatorship, and onwards with the new liberal world order. Democratic states can deal with each other on an equitable basis. Autocratic states have no rights except those which are expedient to this purpose. That others take international law seriously is important because of how it creates binding norms that both restrain and produce pretexts.

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    NATO killed an estimated 40 civilians, Gaddafi killed thousands upon thousands. More than 700 were killed in Misrata alone when Gaddafi sent his troops to bombard and besiege the city in the months before the NATO intervention.
    But this is the propaganda that was reaching American ears.

    “We have carried out this operation very carefully, without confirmed civilian casualties,” the secretary general of NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said in November.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/wo...pagewanted=all
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    HRW reports twice that figure, with athe qualifier that not all victims have been accounted for.
    They report a documented total of 55. Maybe it is higher, maybe not I don't know. What I do know is that the figure is miniscule compared to those slain by the continuance of the civil war, and those killed by Gaddafi's suppression campaign. It is also indicative of the nature of the NATO campaign which did its utmost to avoid such casualties over it's nearly eight month duration.

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media...igated-2012-03

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    Re: Egyptian embassy staff "seized" in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    But this is the propaganda that was reaching American ears.

    “We have carried out this operation very carefully, without confirmed civilian casualties,” the secretary general of NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said in November.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/wo...pagewanted=all
    No it isn't. NATO could not confirm civilian casualties, the low figures that we compiled came from the Vatican, Amnesty, and several media outlets. It doesn't mean that NATO confirmed them. Rasmussen is right the campaign was carried out with extreme care.

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