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Thread: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

  1. #121
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    1.)It was not failed deflection, you're trying to read into that which does not exist.
    2.) I did not say that "I would have to go to jail" and make other threats over the case, that was you.
    3.) And you stating that it's my opinion is wishful thinking.
    4.) The fetus is living human life
    5.) and the husband has right to property over his former wife's body.
    6.) It's life vs. property, you choose property and I choose life; that's all there is to it.
    7.) All this other deflection you're throwing out there is to try to cover that fact.
    8.) It's ok to be for property over life,
    9.) you're entitled to your opinion.
    10.) But to claim it's not property vs life is just dishonest nonsense.
    1) yes it was, and not i didnt
    2.) correct i said in one thread that was labeled ON A SIDE NOT, wonder what that means lol and it had smiles and laughs in it that i would be in jail because i wouldn't have let this happen, there were no other threats. Fats prove you wrong again. Said not, meaning nothing to do with why i want the law to go to court, thanks for pointing that fact out since it proves your post wrong.
    3.) nope its fact
    4.) correct
    5.) the wife, husband and family all have rights
    6.) yes you keep repeating this opinion i know
    7.) you havent presented any fact nor did i deflect
    8.) never said i was
    9.) yes i know thank you
    10.) nope its just pointing out what your opinion is


    this is fun i could do this all night but i have to go, but ill be back and my opinions and facts wont change
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  2. #122
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1) yes it was, and not i didnt
    2.) correct i said in one thread that was labeled ON A SIDE NOT, wonder what that means lol and it had smiles and laughs in it that i would be in jail because i wouldn't have let this happen, there were no other threats. Fats prove you wrong again. Said not, meaning nothing to do with why i want the law to go to court, thanks for pointing that fact out since it proves your post wrong.
    3.) nope its fact
    4.) correct
    5.) the wife, husband and family all have rights
    6.) yes you keep repeating this opinion i know
    7.) you havent presented any fact nor did i deflect
    8.) never said i was
    9.) yes i know thank you
    10.) nope its just pointing out what your opinion is


    this is fun i could do this all night but i have to go, but ill be back and my opinions and facts wont change
    All you have here is opinion and emotion. You are more than free to exercise both, but emotion has no place in law. The "wife" has no rights, it is no longer a wife, it is no longer human, it is a thing. Things do not have rights. Less you want to demonstrate that inanimate objects have rights, I await your argument for it. But until then, it will be filed right next to "The earth is 6000 years old".

    So with your inability to demonstrate your positive claim that inanimate objects have rights, we are left with just one situation. The fetus, a living human life, and the property rights of the husband over the corpse of his wife. As such, till you can demonstrate your positive claim, rationally we acknowledge that it is life vs property. The thing is, you just seem like you do not want to admit the side you're on. There's no opinion on life vs. property, that is fact. Less you can demonstrate otherwise. But you can't, or at least haven't.

    Keep running your mouth, but you're not putting forth an argument. Dead is dead, the dead have no rights. What's alive is the fetus and the husband (please don't say something like "you don't think that there are other people alive other than the husband and fetus" because that would just be dishonest tripe and we don't need any more of that from ya), so the life of the fetus vs. the property rights of the husband. That's functionally what this comes down to. You can at least admit that you take property over life instead of trying to do this little song and dance to make it look otherwise.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Maenad View Post
    What does death smell like? I have worked with dying patients and even cleansed bodies and put them in body bags. I noticed no odor. I think the man is just being dramatic. Nobody smells good in the hospital, particularly if they haven't been bathed and I doubt that she has been. A comatose person on life support has a body that is functioning just like it did before it became comatose with the exception of things like the brain and the muscles going into contracture. The person does not lie there and 'decay.'

    You should read up on people who have been buried alive. One of the founding fathers, I forget which one, left instructions for his body to lie open above ground until it began to decay to be sure he was dead. In 'the old days' a lot of people got buried in a comatose state, the woke up. that was discovered when old cemeteries were dug up and moved.
    Lots of scary movies were made about people being buried alive. I believe that the cemetaries in Louisiana attached a rope with a bell to the hand of a person being buried, that rang outside the crypt, to prevent burying a person that wasn't dead.

    I don't know if the husband was being dramatic, but the stress and sadness he was experiencing is certainly understandable.

  4. #124
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Maenad View Post
    "The hospital" is not the entity making the decisions. The MD is.
    I would not be surprised if the lawsuit comes to fruition that they don't try to throw each other under the bus.

  5. #125
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    You are making allegations for which you've provided no evidence. Provide proof that the hospital made a "reckless attempt" by "stealth." Name the hospital administrator whom you have claimed elsewhere is "pro-life."

    Or, alternatively, you could just stick to facts rather than spinning your judgments based on your own bias.
    Yes, I am biased. No, I can't name which of the admins was or is pro-life. However, it would be impossible for the hospital administrators...of which there are too many to pick a name...had to have known that their defense would not make it past a hearing. And it didn't. But they made the call anyway.

    No where in the Texas Statutes does it say that a hospital...under such conditions...MUST place and keep a dead woman on life support TO ALLOW A NON-VIABLE FETUS to develop to VIABILITY STAGE. NON-FRICKIN-SENSE.

    And I'm talking about someone among all of the folks listed in the link below...had to make such a legal call. This has become such a hot topic for the past couple of months that they had to prepare legally to make the claim that they did.

    Executive and Administrative Staff

    Then somebody had to make the call if the hospital was forced to delivery a fetus prior to a normal 39 to 40 week gestation period...it was a calculated risk to keep the fetus alive long enough to delivery it premature if necessary.

    Then, there was documented evidence that the fetus was seriously damaged. By denying the husband the right to have the support removed...in effect, they would have also denied him the right to request the fetus been aborted. It was only 14 weeks old when the woman died.

    Believe what you will about this hospital and its decision makers...there is no other conclusion that to view the defense given in court today as a stealth move to circumvent abortion laws.

  6. #126
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    I hope that all of this is over and that Erick Munoz will soon be able to bury his wife and to grieve and focus on his son and heal. But you never know--perhaps he will want to become some sort of advocate or write a book or just claim his 15 minutes. For his sake, I hope not.

  7. #127
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    I hope that all of this is over and that Erick Munoz will soon be able to bury his wife and to grieve and focus on his son and heal. But you never know--perhaps he will want to become some sort of advocate or write a book or just claim his 15 minutes. For his sake, I hope not.
    I agree, but it will be very difficult to just let go the past 2 months. he was put through hell. They should have pronounced her legally 2 monts ago and demanded immediate clarification on the law as it pertained to a ldead pregnant mother. But I do hope he can have some normalcy in the near future.

  8. #128
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Lots of scary movies were made about people being buried alive. I believe that the cemetaries in Louisiana attached a rope with a bell to the hand of a person being buried, that rang outside the crypt, to prevent burying a person that wasn't dead.

    I don't know if the husband was being dramatic, but the stress and sadness he was experiencing is certainly understandable.
    It is clear that the doctors were under a law which was put on the books in 1977 that mandated keeping a pregnant woman alive until the fetus is viable. They had no choice. I am amazed at the number of people who think it is all so cut and dried, person is brain dead, pull the plug. It just isn't that easy. When I finished my master's I, through no choice of my own, got in the middle of something similar. The Ethics Committee had given a family the choice of pulling the plug on one of theirs. The staff went completely ballistic. The man was still conscious. I was sent over to the unit to 'support' the staff through it. Their comment to me, 'Discharge him. If the family wants to kill him let them take him home and do it themselves.' I had to agree. So, I took this back to management. It was the first time the staff had been heard on the matter. The doctors went and evaluated him and decided, contrary to what the Ethics Committee thought, the man was not a candidate to have the plug pulled.

    There are laws and some very fine lines in these situations. The patient and the family are not the only ones with rights. Hospital staff also have the right not to have to do something they find morally repugnant. The law in America is more a balancing act than anything else. It seeks to balance the rights of all concerned. I do recall the similar fight by the family of Karen Quinlan. But when they pulled the plug, she did not die, she lay comatose without life support for 10 years.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Maenad View Post
    It is clear that the doctors were under a law which was put on the books in 1977 that mandated keeping a pregnant woman alive until the fetus is viable. They had no choice. I am amazed at the number of people who think it is all so cut and dried, person is brain dead, pull the plug. It just isn't that easy. When I finished my master's I, through no choice of my own, got in the middle of something similar. The Ethics Committee had given a family the choice of pulling the plug on one of theirs. The staff went completely ballistic. The man was still conscious. I was sent over to the unit to 'support' the staff through it. Their comment to me, 'Discharge him. If the family wants to kill him let them take him home and do it themselves.' I had to agree. So, I took this back to management. It was the first time the staff had been heard on the matter. The doctors went and evaluated him and decided, contrary to what the Ethics Committee thought, the man was not a candidate to have the plug pulled.

    There are laws and some very fine lines in these situations. The patient and the family are not the only ones with rights. Hospital staff also have the right not to have to do something they find morally repugnant. The law in America is more a balancing act than anything else. It seeks to balance the rights of all concerned. I do recall the similar fight by the family of Karen Quinlan. But when they pulled the plug, she did not die, she lay comatose without life support for 10 years.
    Thanks for sharing an insider's view from someone who has been there--done that! Makes it more understandable.

  10. #130
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    Re: Judge: brain-dead pregnant woman to be removed from life support

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    How unfortunate, for both people involved.
    There were only two people involved in this fiasco?
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