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Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional[W:183]

Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Zyphlin said:
Or taxes, or education, or businesses, or the environment...let's just go hog wild interjecting ideology heavily into yet another sector of government. Or are you in favor of it only when it's being done towards things you agree with?
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Yes, priorities shift with the election of different people, and Herring in fact campaigned on marriage equality so there was no shock there. Is there any reason to believe that the AG is specifically breaking the oaths of his office? Is he or is he not within his rights?

And to answer your question, yes, I do prefer that elected officials hold the same beliefs as myself, and am disappointed when they don't.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Cardinal said:
Yes, priorities shift with the election of different people, and Herring in fact campaigned on marriage equality so there was no shock there.
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Really, he did? I should've been living out in LA instead of Virginia then, maybe I would've heard about it then. Because living in the state and generally following politics, I can't say I heard it brought up with or by him much and actually heard supporters try to promote him being a bit "moderate" in part because he actually previously VOTED for the law. Where are you getting the notion that he campaigned on the issue, specifically of outright refusal to defend the law in court?

Two weeks into being in office...this can hardly be a sudden decision, yet I can't recall a time he declared that this would be one if, let alone his first, agenda item upon becoming AG. Funny how that works. Important enough to act on immediately, not important enough to tell the voters.

And good to know...you are okay with democrats politicizing the AGs office but don't like it if a Republican does it, got it
 
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Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Zyphlin said:
Really, he did? I should've been living out in LA instead of Virginia then, maybe I would've heard about it then. Because living in the state and generally following politics, I can't say I heard it brought up with or by him much and actually heard supporters try to promote him being a bit "moderate" in part because he actually previously VOTED for the law. Where are you getting the notion that he campaigned on this issue?
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from Politifact:

Herring sang a different tune this spring during his successful Democratic primary campaign for attorney general.

On April 5, he released an "Equality Agenda" that said, "Mark Herring believes that civil marriage is a fundamental right, and he supports marriage equality for same-gender couples." Herring pledged to work "to change the current law prohibiting such marriages."
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http://www.politifact.com/virginia/.../mark-herring-reverses-position-gay-marriage/

From that link:

Mark will use the power of the Attorney General to support initiatives to protect
lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) Virginians from discrimination
and disparate treatment in state and local agencies and programs.
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Zyphlin said:
And good to know...you are okay with democrats politicizing the AGs office but don't like it if a Republican does it, got it
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It's an elected political office. Not only that, regardless of whether a liberal or conservative is elected, we're voting for humans, not androids, and humans are going to have priorities. Those priorities are what politicians campaign on and are the basis for our votes.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Zyphlin said:
When we next get a republican AG, I wonder if people should file suit against the states income tax and then the AG just declare he won't actually defend the states law. Or any laws regulating business or the environment. Or if the state began implementing Obamacare and lawsuits sought to stop it. Or any other law that republicans don't like. Because apparently we should simply have AGs who won't defend the laws of the state if he doesn't like it and this says he doesn't agree with any arguments in favor of the law.
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The independent judiciary has been under attack from both sides for quite awhile. Imagine if left wing activists treated state judges, who made decisions they did not like, the same way that the right wing activists did to the Justices in Iowa after their same sex marriage decision.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Cardinal said:
from Politifact:
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I read the link politic act references. Thought there are numerous SPECIFIC actions he suggests he will take. Nothing, what so ever, is mentioned regarding not defending the laws currently on the books regarding marriage...yet it's his first significant act on the job. It was a clear instance of downplaying throughout the election a major issue that was a top priority the moment he came into office. What you snipped is essentially one line out of a three part, multiple paragraph long campaign plank.

Also, politics act themselves...which I've begun to realize is more and more common...editorialized his stance by claiming he pledged to work to change the law, when if you read the agenda he makes no such pledge but rather it's a throw away line talking about things he's doing while they work to change the law....NOT ignore the law, as he is doing.

Again, he absolutely did not campaign on the notion he would not defend the states ban on gay marriage, and yet was so sure of the situation that he performed that action not even a month into office yet.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Zyphlin said:
I read the link politic act references. Thought there are numerous SPECIFIC actions he suggests he will take. Nothing, what so ever, is mentioned regarding not defending the laws currently on the books regarding marriage...yet it's his first significant act on the job. It was a clear instance of downplaying throughout the election a major issue that was a top priority the moment he came into office. What you snipped is essentially one line out of a three part, multiple paragraph long campaign plank.

Also, politics act themselves...which I've begun to realize is more and more common...editorialized his stance by claiming he pledged to work to change the law, when if you read the agenda he makes no such pledge but rather it's a throw away line talking about things he's doing while they work to change the law....NOT ignore the law, as he is doing.

Again, he absolutely did not campaign on the notion he would not defend the states ban on gay marriage, and yet was so sure of the situation that he performed that action not even a month into office yet.
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WTF do you think he put his position on marriage equality into that agenda for if not to announce how he might handle marriage equality once he got into office? He has priorities, and promoting laws against gay marriage ain't it, and his interpretation of the law is that it's unconstitutional. What did you expect him to do? Argue for laws against gay marriage, but feel really really bad about it? Your argument makes no sense.

Is he or is he not within his legally and professionally defined rights as Attorney General to do as he did?
 
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Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Cardinal said:
Is he or is he not within his legally and professionally defined rights as Attorney General to do as he did?
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Don't know why you keep pushing this strawman question. I've not said he should be removed, nor that he isn't allowed to do this, but rather that I think it's bad form and is a mentality and thought process that I think is damaging and outside of the scope of what I think the AG should be doing, not can be doing.

Also, I already stated my view on the priority front and my disagreement with you trying to present it in that fashion when the AG has not presented this in the least as an issue of being too low of a priority to get to, but rather something he simply disagree with.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Zyphlin said:
Don't know why you keep pushing this strawman question. I've not said he should be removed, nor that he isn't allowed to do this, but rather that I think it's bad form and is a mentality and thought process that I think is damaging and outside of the scope of what I think the AG should be doing, not can be doing.

Also, I already stated my view on the priority front and my disagreement with you trying to present it in that fashion when the AG has not presented this in the least as an issue of being too low of a priority to get to, but rather something he simply disagree with.
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Tomayto tomahto. He made his position on marriage equality perfectly clear while campaigning for office, and as head lawyer for Virginia he interpreted within the scope of his professional opinion that a law against gay marriage was constitutionally indefensible. It was not only not in bad form, but it was completely within the scope of his office and to be expected considering his campaign platform.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

As much as I enjoy what the AG is doing, from an legal standpoint, it is hard for me to justify what he is doing. It is the duty of the AG to defend the constitutionality of the laws of his state. Going the extra step of attacking Virginia's marriage ban is indefensible. And I don't think you will find a bigger supporter of same sex marriage than me.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Zyphlin said:
When we next get a republican AG, I wonder if people should file suit against the states income tax and then the AG just declare he won't actually defend the states law. Or any laws regulating business or the environment. Or if the state began implementing Obamacare and lawsuits sought to stop it. Or any other law that republicans don't like. Because apparently we should simply have AGs who won't defend the laws of the state if he doesn't like it and this says he doesn't agree with any arguments in favor of the law.
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Republican AG's do the same thing, they just have different laws they may choose to view as "unconstitutional" and therefore refuse to defend.

Take Ken Cuccinelli, he also refused to defend something because he felft it was unconstitutoinal.

"Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli is elaborating on why he won't
defend in court a new law supported by Gov. Bob McDonnell
allowing the state to take control of failing schools."​

Cuccinelli won't defend failing-schools law in court | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com


>>>>
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

CriticalThought said:
As much as I enjoy what the AG is doing, from an legal standpoint, it is hard for me to justify what he is doing. It is the duty of the AG to defend the constitutionality of the laws of his state. Going the extra step of attacking Virginia's marriage ban is indefensible. And I don't think you will find a bigger supporter of same sex marriage than me.
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accurate and rational thinking. better watch it, that could get you thrown out of "marriage equality" club. they don't take kindly to such remarks. to them your defending the '60s southerns sheriff who arrestted blacks for sitting at lunch counters because(just like in Virginia) he was enforcing the laws of the state.

this is a crusade for them and they don't abide by our petty laws sir! shame on you for implying as much
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

CriticalThought said:
As much as I enjoy what the AG is doing, from an legal standpoint, it is hard for me to justify what he is doing. It is the duty of the AG to defend the constitutionality of the laws of his state. Going the extra step of attacking Virginia's marriage ban is indefensible. And I don't think you will find a bigger supporter of same sex marriage than me.
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Actually I agree, our judicial system is based on the idea of a healthy presentation of both sides of a legal argument and especially in such a high profile area the AG should present the States case in support of such laws. But Republican AG's have been known to do the same thing (see Post #110).

With that said though the Attorney General's Oath of Office is "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge all the duties incumbent upon me as . . . . . . . . . . according to the best of my ability, (so help me God)."

The Oath therefore calls for the AG to uphold BOTH the United States Constitution and the VA Constitution, kind of a Catch-22.


LIS > Code of Virginia > 49-1


>>>>
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

CriticalThought said:
As much as I enjoy what the AG is doing, from an legal standpoint, it is hard for me to justify what he is doing. It is the duty of the AG to defend the constitutionality of the laws of his state. Going the extra step of attacking Virginia's marriage ban is indefensible. And I don't think you will find a bigger supporter of same sex marriage than me.
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Can you identify a legal and constitutional basis on which he should defend the law in court?
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Zyphlin said:
Don't know why you keep pushing this strawman question. I've not said he should be removed, nor that he isn't allowed to do this, but rather that I think it's bad form and is a mentality and thought process that I think is damaging and outside of the scope of what I think the AG should be doing, not can be doing.

Also, I already stated my view on the priority front and my disagreement with you trying to present it in that fashion when the AG has not presented this in the least as an issue of being too low of a priority to get to, but rather something he simply disagree with.
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Yet another cop out of "he simply disagrees with."

I would love for even one person attacking this guy's decision to actually respond to the argument the guy was making. Just one.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Virginia won't defend its same-sex marriage ban

USA Today has the full copy of the legal brief the AG gave. So can some of you guys read that instead of just spouting off a bunch of bull**** about how he "doesn't like" the law?
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

danarhea said:
Elections have consequences, in this case a good consequence. No longer will millions of Virginians' taxpayer dollars be wasted defending the indefensible.

Article is here.
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Yes, bad consequence for those you choose to think and look beyond the single issue and recognize the abuse by the government.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Anthony60 said:
Yes, bad consequence for those you choose to think and look beyond the single issue and recognize the abuse by the government.
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uhmmm what abuse?
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

winston53660 said:
uhmmm what abuse?
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Oh, you know, just behaving in any manner they want, not enforcing some laws, enforcing others. No big deal, just look the other way if it's something you support. Just hope the next AG doesn't say he is against gay marriage and won't enforce the laws allowing it. You good with that kind of government?
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Anthony60 said:
Oh, you know, just behaving in any manner they want, not enforcing some laws, enforcing others. No big deal, just look the other way if it's something you support. Just hope the next AG doesn't say he is against gay marriage and won't enforce the laws allowing it. You good with that kind of government?
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The law is still being enforced.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Anthony60 said:
You've got to be kidding.
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He's the state's top lawyer, isn't he? He's going to have an interpretation of the constitutionality of laws.

So far, no one here has really made a good argument for why Herring was out of line. If what he did was within the scope of his office and he made his position clear before refusing to defend the law, then I'm no seeing the problem here. And let me be absolutely clear on this: if his position was opposite, but still acted predictably and within the scope of his office, I would say the same thing. Would I be personally disappointed? Of course, but I wouldn't say he was out of line.
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Anthony60 said:
Oh, you know, just behaving in any manner they want, not enforcing some laws, enforcing others. No big deal, just look the other way if it's something you support. Just hope the next AG doesn't say he is against gay marriage and won't enforce the laws allowing it. You good with that kind of government?
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Again, the law is being enforced. Learn the difference between a defense in court and enforcement.

I posted the legal brief. Did you read it?
 
Re: Va. AG's office: Gay marriage ban unconstitutional

Deuce said:
Again, the law is being enforced. Learn the difference between a defense in court and enforcement.

I posted the legal brief. Did you read it?
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No, it effectively is not. Change the law, if they want, that's fine. Seems this is getting to more common lately. You get into office and decide not to enforce some laws. Not good.
 
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