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Thread: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

  1. #181
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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Or vice versa. Hence the dilemma...
    My point being that the U.S. started the cycle.

    Though Iran was already being dominated by Britain, we were friendly from the 1920s until the 1950s when the U.S. (as a half-baked extension of the Cold War) overthrew their government, which led directly to Khomeini in 1979.

    Iran is far more victim than villain here. It is perfectly reasonable for them to want parity by having a nuclear deterrent.

    The notion that they would strike first in the face of the immediate retaliation is the same kind of paranoid nonsense that created this situation.

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyPete View Post
    My point being that the U.S. started the cycle.

    Though Iran was already being dominated by Britain, we were friendly from the 1920s until the 1950s when the U.S. (as a half-baked extension of the Cold War) overthrew their government, which led directly to Khomeini in 1979.

    Iran is far more victim than villain here. It is perfectly reasonable for them to want parity by having a nuclear deterrent.

    The notion that they would strike first in the face of the immediate retaliation is the same kind of paranoid nonsense that created this situation.

    Pop quiz: What was Khomeini specifically objecting to when he began calling for the overthrow of the government?







    Answer: The Shah was trying to give voting rights to women and equal rights to minorities and non-Muslims. That monster.

    Khomeini didn't care about the safety of the Iranian people. He was orders of magnitude more brutal a ruler than the Shah ever was. Khomeini opposed the westernization of Iranian culture, so Khomeini was always going to happen in a secular, west-allied Iran. In other words, the only way Khomeini doesn't start a revolution is if Iran already had a brutal, repressive theocracy in place.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Pop quiz: What was Khomeini specifically objecting to when he began calling for the overthrow of the government?
    And how long did it take the U.S to grant those same right to women? Was it after an outside power created a coup, and then started pushing for aggressive social reform?

    Sometimes it takes time to get the public behind the right policy.

    Iran is a perfect example of what happens when you force people to do the right thing without convincing them it's the right thing first.

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyPete View Post
    And how long did it take the U.S to grant those same right to women? Was it after an outside power created a coup, and then started pushing for aggressive social reform?

    Sometimes it takes time to get the public behind the right policy.

    Iran is a perfect example of what happens when you force people to do the right thing without convincing them it's the right thing first.

    Kind of ironic that you make such an argument given the massive changes in Iranian culture following the fall of the Shah, and the general opposition of the people of Iran to those changes. When the Shah fell the national polls supported him over the Khomeini revolutionaries. The people saw Khomeini as the threat. This continues to this very day with the majority of Iranian people supporting modernization while the brutal theocracy continues to beat them down.

    So no, the Iranian people were ready for the reforms, it just happened that the most bloodthirsty and brutal faction in Iran wasn't ready and never would be.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyPete View Post
    And how long did it take the U.S to grant those same right to women? Was it after an outside power created a coup, and then started pushing for aggressive social reform?

    Sometimes it takes time to get the public behind the right policy.

    Iran is a perfect example of what happens when you force people to do the right thing without convincing them it's the right thing first.
    The CIA's 1953 covert operation had nothing to do with humanitarian missions. Nor does any US policy in the ME. But the hawkish ones always seek to justify US aggression on it!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Kind of ironic that you make such an argument given the massive changes in Iranian culture following the fall of the Shah, and the general opposition of the people of Iran to those changes. When the Shah fell the national polls supported him over the Khomeini revolutionaries. The people saw Khomeini as the threat. This continues to this very day with the majority of Iranian people supporting modernization while the brutal theocracy continues to beat them down.

    So no, the Iranian people were ready for the reforms, it just happened that the most bloodthirsty and brutal faction in Iran wasn't ready and never would be.
    Those attitudes had started changing before the coup. The coup empowered and legitimized those radicals. The coup was a UK\USA venture triggered because the Mohammad Mosaddegh was planning to nationalize their oil industry, and vague fears of Communist influence. That Iranian monster had to be stopped!

    If we had left well enough alone in the '50s, they may well have placed those reform on their own by now. The West created the situation we face today.

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyPete View Post
    Those attitudes had started changing before the coup. The coup empowered and legitimized those radicals. The coup was a UK\USA venture triggered because the Mohammad Mosaddegh was planning to nationalize their oil industry, and vague fears of Communist influence. That Iranian monster had to be stopped!

    If we had left well enough alone in the '50s, they may well have placed those reform on their own by now. The West created the situation we face today.

    <Link>
    I don't know why it is, it's unfortunate, but Americans don't due well when the focus comes back on US wrong doing. I wish that weren't the case. We may have a better chance at our own reforms if it were.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyPete View Post
    My point being that the U.S. started the cycle.

    Though Iran was already being dominated by Britain, we were friendly from the 1920s until the 1950s when the U.S. (as a half-baked extension of the Cold War) overthrew their government, which led directly to Khomeini in 1979.

    Iran is far more victim than villain here. It is perfectly reasonable for them to want parity by having a nuclear deterrent.

    The notion that they would strike first in the face of the immediate retaliation is the same kind of paranoid nonsense that created this situation.

    Believe that statement is a little naive. If Iran has nuclear capability Israel certainly has reason to be concerned. Muslim extremists aren't known for rational thought. And there are "means of delivery" for a bomb that would not need to come from Iranian airspace...


    “Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.”

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Oh, damn! Are you telling me that using an unqualified community organizer as President has screwed us again??? Who could've predicted that?
    "We have met the enemy and they are ours..." -- Oliver Hazard Perry
    "I don't want a piece of you... I want the whole thing!" -- Bob Barker

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    Re: Iranian official on nuke deal: 'We did not agree to dismantle anything'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyPete View Post
    And how long did it take the U.S to grant those same right to women? Was it after an outside power created a coup, and then started pushing for aggressive social reform?

    Sometimes it takes time to get the public behind the right policy.

    Iran is a perfect example of what happens when you force people to do the right thing without convincing them it's the right thing first.
    Yes, they've only had a few thousand years to mull it over.
    "We have met the enemy and they are ours..." -- Oliver Hazard Perry
    "I don't want a piece of you... I want the whole thing!" -- Bob Barker

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