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Thread: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    See, I understand that, and although I can't speak for adpst, I can tell you that during the Bush administration from my prospective, I think he did a reasonably good job. I wasn't totally on board with the Spying stuff, (primarily for this reason we have today) but at the same time, I don't think that Bush was turning it on American citizens the way this President is doing either.

    As to the comparisons, many do this to justify what Obama is doing today, or to deflect arguments about the 'here and now' trying to obfuscate. Even more frustrating are those that smugly present their arguments as though anyone not agreeing with them are just partisan hacks, and should be dismissed out of hand.

    I only asked if you were comparing to justify Obama's use of the NSA as it stands today, if so, I would have said that justifications based on the "he did it too" arguments are just plain fallacious and if you support Obama, or what he is doing you should have more to rest on in that regard....

    Thanks for the reply.
    Do you think it's possible that you just don't see what the Bush administration did because you didn't want to? What Snowden revealed is not something that was suddenly invented by Obama. These programs were in place before his Presidency, and if Snowden had revealed what he did in 2007, the sides would just be reversed IMO and ape-std would just be running as much interference as he could.

    While Obama and the Democrats didn't do anything to get rid of any of this, repealing it hasn't exactly been a priority in the GOP, and under a President McCain or Romney we'd see the very same things happening. Both of the 2 parties like this sort of thing when they're in charge, and hate it when they're the opposition, and neither of them are likely to kill it because they want to do it or whine about it (depending on who's in power).


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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    See, I understand that, and although I can't speak for adpst, I can tell you that during the Bush administration from my prospective, I think he did a reasonably good job. I wasn't totally on board with the Spying stuff, (primarily for this reason we have today) but at the same time, I don't think that Bush was turning it on American citizens the way this President is doing either.

    As to the comparisons, many do this to justify what Obama is doing today, or to deflect arguments about the 'here and now' trying to obfuscate. Even more frustrating are those that smugly present their arguments as though anyone not agreeing with them are just partisan hacks, and should be dismissed out of hand.

    I only asked if you were comparing to justify Obama's use of the NSA as it stands today, if so, I would have said that justifications based on the "he did it too" arguments are just plain fallacious and if you support Obama, or what he is doing you should have more to rest on in that regard....

    Thanks for the reply.
    Sure thing. And no, I'm no supporter of Obama and specifically with respect to this topic. But if we Americans don't dispense with the team mentality and see ourselves as Americans and constitutionalists first, and party affiliates second, nothing will ever be repaired, and this tired and worn out finger pointing, which serves zero purpose, and hair splitting over who did more of it,and who did it worse, we can continue to expect more. Yes J-Mac, I hear ya loudly, what Obama is doing is magnitudes worse. But what Bush did, in THIS regard was magnitudes worse then Clinton. Why do people have such difficulties with this. Because Bush supporters ALLOWED the camels nose under tent, we now have half his body under. It's too late to hold Bush accountable for the earlier abuse, and now those who didn't, want to jump and scream over Obama's latter abuse, problem is, his base of support won't! As Bush's base of support wouldn't then. So here we go back and forth with this sophomoric finger pointing over who's worse, and in the process we all get a good ****ing. STOP already being a partisan, hold EVERYBODY ACCOUNTABLE.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    On the Republicans who passed the Patriot Act in the first place?
    Since then, the Democrats have had control of the Legislative Executive Branches and didn't do anything. Obama flat stated he wasn't going to stop the surveillance. It's his show, now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Where was the Republican outrage in 2006? USATODAY.com - Questions and answers about the NSA phone record collection program

    Again, note the article date: Updated 5/11/2006 12:31 AM ET
    Where's the Libbo outrage over Obama's stated refusal to end the program?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Since then, the Democrats have had control of the Legislative Executive Branches and didn't do anything. Obama flat stated he wasn't going to stop the surveillance. It's his show, now.
    True enough. I blame them for not getting rid of it. The fact remains that the opposition party will always play these games - whine and whine, then leave it alone so that THEY can do it when they return to power.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    True enough. I blame them for not getting rid of it. The fact remains that the opposition party will always play these games - whine and whine, then leave it alone so that THEY can do it when they return to power.
    It's NEVER Obama's fault, either...lol!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Where's the Libbo outrage over Obama's stated refusal to end the program?
    Well I'm no libbo and I'm outraged over the continued program. I'm also outraged that you stood idly by while Bush started it and let that camels nose under the rug. You just can't see how that this **** is never going to end because of partisan support.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Do you think it's possible that you just don't see what the Bush administration did because you didn't want to? What Snowden revealed is not something that was suddenly invented by Obama. These programs were in place before his Presidency, and if Snowden had revealed what he did in 2007, the sides would just be reversed IMO and ape-std would just be running as much interference as he could.

    While Obama and the Democrats didn't do anything to get rid of any of this, repealing it hasn't exactly been a priority in the GOP, and under a President McCain or Romney we'd see the very same things happening. Both of the 2 parties like this sort of thing when they're in charge, and hate it when they're the opposition, and neither of them are likely to kill it because they want to do it or whine about it (depending on who's in power).

    Anything is possible I suppose, however, we are in the here and now. I have always held a certain bit of skepticism about the Patriot act, and the power it gave to government as opposed to liberty lost, and at its inception, things were different than today. Now you can continue to chide me for a lack of forward thinking at the time, or you can look at how the current administration, and politicians on both sides are addressing this and agree that while we need to be able to take measures to listen, or track certain numbers in contact within the US, but that mass grabs of information are not acceptable. This whole 'you were fine with Bush having it' argument is pointless.
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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Sure thing. And no, I'm no supporter of Obama and specifically with respect to this topic. But if we Americans don't dispense with the team mentality and see ourselves as Americans and constitutionalists first, and party affiliates second, nothing will ever be repaired, and this tired and worn out finger pointing, which serves zero purpose, and hair splitting over who did more of it,and who did it worse, we can continue to expect more. Yes J-Mac, I hear ya loudly, what Obama is doing is magnitudes worse. But what Bush did, in THIS regard was magnitudes worse then Clinton. Why do people have such difficulties with this. Because Bush supporters ALLOWED the camels nose under tent, we now have half his body under. It's too late to hold Bush accountable for the earlier abuse, and now those who didn't, want to jump and scream over Obama's latter abuse, problem is, his base of support won't! As Bush's base of support wouldn't then. So here we go back and forth with this sophomoric finger pointing over who's worse, and in the process we all get a good ****ing. STOP already being a partisan, hold EVERYBODY ACCOUNTABLE.
    I hear ya. The way I am looking at it now is, what is it that you, or anyone for that matter, should be saying to satisfy your view of the situation, because I can tell ya, from what I see, this power is not going away for any administration, anytime soon.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Questions and answers about Obama’s new NSA rules

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I hear ya. The way I am looking at it now is, what is it that you, or anyone for that matter, should be saying to satisfy your view of the situation, because I can tell ya, from what I see, this power is not going away for any administration, anytime soon.
    Yes well point taken. Far more Americans are partisan than not. And not all independents are TRULY independent. Until the TRULY independent, liberty minded and constitutionally focused Americans out number partisans, we can expect the status quo. Why protecting ones party president trumps the law, no longer amazes me, and it will eventually deliver us something none of us want.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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