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Thread: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The comment was meant to encompass more than you. Others clearly use it to diminish, and they are the universial you.

    Bush my be gone, but his legacy is in going. As a realist, I know that no one had the ability to make everything right again after he invaded. Any good there will be bore by the Iraq people. They and only they can turn that mistake into something positive.

    Also as a realist, I know conflicts and actions I disagree with will happen. Doing them at minimal cost is better that maximum cost. Still wrong, but significantly better.

    We agree both are wrong. Left at that, there us no debate between us. However, when anyone say it is the same as bush, which is where I believe this discussion started, I have to disagree.
    Good grief, two pages of you and I back and forth is enough!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Good grief, two pages of you and I back and forth is enough!!
    That's fine. I'm only answering you. You jumped into this conversation; you can jump out.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Far more dangerous to us than Iraq. Though my previous post didn't address threat at all. Iraq was nothing. Libya was destabilizing, and if you've learn nothing from Iraq, such destabilization helps our enemies, and as such is a threat. Not one I think required our involvement, but more than Iraq.
    Just because you say so doesn't make it so. You have to show why you think Libya was more threat to us than Iraq at the time.

    But, the real reason that you are twisting into a pretzel over that simple question is simply that Obama, a president you support says so. In fact you show your partisan dishonesty openly with your own logic.
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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Just because you say so doesn't make it so. You have to show why you think Libya was more threat to us than Iraq at the time.

    But, the real reason that you are twisting into a pretzel over that simple question is simply that Obama, a president you support says so. In fact you show your partisan dishonesty openly with your own logic.
    I never know why you travel down that road. It is equally true that because you say so it doesn't make it so.

    And there is no twisting. That too is a figment of your imagination.

    Sorry.

    Now, do you have a point? Something we can discuss? Or is this all you have?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I never know why you travel down that road. It is equally true that because you say so it doesn't make it so.

    And there is no twisting. That too is a figment of your imagination.

    Sorry.

    Now, do you have a point? Something we can discuss? Or is this all you have?
    Victor Davis Hanson wrote an article in the National Review in 2011 that makes some good points that I'd like you to address one by one if you would.

    1) We have no idea what North Africa, much less Libya, will soon look like — although the grotesque shooting of Qaddafi is in contrast with the trial of Saddam, and so far the Iraqi government has not subordinated its entire legal system to Sharia law, which was the first proclamation from the new Libyan “government” (i.e., the National Transitional Council, whose leader Mustafa Abdul Jalil just boasted, “As a Muslim country, we have adopted the Islamic Sharia as the main source of law. Accordingly, any law that contradicts Islamic principles with the Islamic Sharia is ineffective legally”).

    In other words, to the degree the U.S., stupidly or wisely, puts troops on the ground before, during, or after an air campaign, it has a costly but positive role in postwar reconstruction (cf. Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, the former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.); but to the degree it does not, it does not. We hope that, in a year, Libya resembles an Islamizing Turkey and not chaotic Somalia or theocratic Iran, but we simply don’t know. I hope Friedman is correct that it “is now up to them,” but when a power removes by force a government (even a repulsive one) that did not pose a strategic threat, history suggests that it feels, or others feel, that it has some responsibility for what follows.

    2) Whatever one thinks about Iraq and Afghanistan, they are not comparable to Libya. The former are distant, large countries of 30-some million people. Afghanistan is landlocked, with forbidding weather and terrain, and borders former Soviet republics, Pakistan, and Iran; Iraq in the heart of the ancient caliphate with neighbors like Syria and Iran. Libya, in contrast, is a tiny nation of 6.4 million people, almost all concentrated on the coast, and situated on the Mediterranean shore, an hour or so from traditional NATO bases. Removing Saddam or the Taliban and staying on to foster consensual government is simply a different level of magnitude than taking out Qaddafi — and who knows what next.

    3) We cannot forget chronology: Iraq came before Libya. Qaddafi surrendered his biological, chemical, and quite surprisingly advanced nuclear programs after the removal of Saddam; had he not (and he probably would not have, without Saddam’s example), who knows what eight years of further development and deployment would have led to by 2011? With such weapons, both the rebels and NATO would have been far more cautious in their reactions to his use of force, The catalysts for the Arab Spring are many, but the trial of Saddam and the survival of a democratic government in Iraq were positive forces — as we saw from the Syrian departure from Lebanon and the arrest of Dr. Khan in Pakistan.

    4) Qaddafi was a monster in rehab who by 2011 posed little strategic threat to the U.S. or its neighbors — at least so had argued the British, French, and Italian governments that were scrambling to negotiate new deals with him, and an array of American intellectuals, academics, and commercial reps who wrote about the so-called moderating influences in Libya and the next generation of Qaddafi offspring who would transition it back into the community of nations.

    The Taliban, in contrast, were the hosts of the 9/11 attackers. We had fought one war against Saddam (who had attacked four of his neighbors) and were in the midst of a 12-year no-fly-zone effort that was shedding NATO allies, after a major bombing operation in the last year of the Clinton administration. Worries about Saddam were expressed in the 20-something writs passed by both houses of Congress in October 2002, after an earlier regime-change resolution passed in the Clinton era. There is no comparable legislation regarding Libya.

    5) As far as authorization goes, it too is problematic: True, we got U.N. approval for Libya, unlike Iraq, but only to conduct a no-fly-zone and offer humanitarian assistance. Almost immediately we exceeded that — as we had to, if we were to win and remove the Qaddafi family — by targeted assassinations and a full-fledged bombing campaign in concert with the rebels. Does all that strengthen or weaken reliance on U.N. resolutions in the future? And unlike Afghanistan and Iraq, for which there were joint congressional resolutions, we intervened in Libya without the approval of Congress, and with many erstwhile critics of Bush’s interventions writing weird briefs explaining why the administration did not need congressional approval to bomb in Libya.

    6) Friedman is right in saying that Republican leaders have a hard time admitting Obama’s anti-terrorism successes. But why is that? Perhaps because Obama was once a fierce critic of nearly all the Bush/Cheney anti-terrorism protocols — the Patriot Act, tribunals, renditions, preventive detention, Guantamo, Iraq — at a critical time when such political opposition almost ended them altogether, on the premise they were either amoral or ineffectual or both. But mirabile dictu, President Obama adopted or vastly expanded almost all of them, assured that his associates’ criticism would magically cease around January 2009, which of course it did.

    Iraq vs. Libya | National Review Online
    The problem is that liberals like you Boo try to have it both ways, denouncing, and condemning, and even lying about what the Bush administration had to do in the wake of 9/11, while at the same time praising Obama for the very same type of antics on the world stage. In fact I would argue that due to the weakening that Qaddafi underwent as a direct result of the removal of Saddam, paved the way for Obama to look strong when in reality he was just picking on a weakened despot, an easy pick, and gave another signal of the dhimmi like behavior from Obama in bowing to the pro Islamic state forces that made noise to have him give aid in the first place. How'd that work out for him? A year later they killed his ambassador, and three other brave Americans.

    You want to hang your hat on Obama while denouncing Bush? Fine, do so...But you look like a hack when you do.
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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Victor Davis Hanson wrote an article in the National Review in 2011 that makes some good points that I'd like you to address one by one if you would.



    The problem is that liberals like you Boo try to have it both ways, denouncing, and condemning, and even lying about what the Bush administration had to do in the wake of 9/11, while at the same time praising Obama for the very same type of antics on the world stage. In fact I would argue that due to the weakening that Qaddafi underwent as a direct result of the removal of Saddam, paved the way for Obama to look strong when in reality he was just picking on a weakened despot, an easy pick, and gave another signal of the dhimmi like behavior from Obama in bowing to the pro Islamic state forces that made noise to have him give aid in the first place. How'd that work out for him? A year later they killed his ambassador, and three other brave Americans.

    You want to hang your hat on Obama while denouncing Bush? Fine, do so...But you look like a hack when you do.
    Victor is a poor source (we've discussed this before). But I will look at it when I have a little more time.

    I have never lied about Bush. You miss a lot because you add in your stereotype what has never been said by the person you talk to. Nor have I hung any hat on Obama. When you say that it suggests you don't understand what has been said. I have made no argument for Obama on this. I only argue they are not the same. I think it is an important point. But it does not make Obama right or perfect.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    ^
    ^ excellent find
    As far as authorization goes, it too is problematic: True, we got U.N. approval for Libya, unlike Iraq, but only to conduct a no-fly-zone and offer humanitarian assistance. Almost immediately we exceeded that — as we had to, if we were to win and remove the Qaddafi family — by targeted assassinations and a full-fledged bombing campaign in concert with the rebels.
    Does all that strengthen or weaken reliance on U.N. resolutions in the future? And unlike Afghanistan and Iraq, for which there were joint congressional resolutions, we intervened in Libya without the approval of Congress, and with many erstwhile critics of Bush’s interventions writing weird briefs explaining why the administration did not need congressional approval to bomb in Libya.
    the "weird brief' mentioned was "kinetic military action" - the claim by the Obama Adm that this wasn't war, that needed Congressional approval, or notification;
    it was 'something different' (my words)
    It was just made up garbage language - this Adm's specialty. They will say any kind of cotton candy rhetoric that sounds good, but melts to sticky mess when dissected.

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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Victor is a poor source (we've discussed this before).
    Yes, I know you don't like him because largely you disagree with him, however, his credentials suggest that he is a well thought out, and reasoned individual...

    He was a professor of classics at California State University, Fresno, and is currently the Martin and Illie Anderson Senior Fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

    Victor Davis Hanson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I am sure if I were quoting Chomsky, (similar backgrounds) then you'd have no problem with it right?

    But I will look at it when I have a little more time.
    Please do more than "look at it".... Read it, and answer what I highlighted.

    I have never lied about Bush.
    You omit much in forming your conclusions about what Bush did while in office, so in essence yes, you do "lie" about Bush.

    You miss a lot because you add in your stereotype what has never been said by the person you talk to.
    Oh please....Stop already with the attempt to place yourself above that fray....Everyone in this site has perceptions about whom they are speaking about. You can no more separate that thought pattern from thought anymore than you can hold your breath for 10 minutes.

    Nor have I hung any hat on Obama.
    Oh yes you have....I don't believe I have ever read a single post of yours, and that covers over 10 years of posts, that has anything good to say about republicans, or conservatives.

    When you say that it suggests you don't understand what has been said.
    No, that is your typical, silly little dodge to avoid speaking to inconvenient facts.

    I have made no argument for Obama on this. I only argue they are not the same.
    Oh, excuse me, your arguments of things not being "the same" or "like" is a method of defense whether you consciously know that or not.

    I think it is an important point. But it does not make Obama right or perfect.
    So then where is the level of condemnation from you toward Obama? It is conspicuously missing.
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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yes, I know you don't like him because largely you disagree with him, however, his credentials suggest that he is a well thought out, and reasoned individual...
    Lots of idiots have credentials. I've explained before why he fails to impress.
    I am sure if I were quoting Chomsky, (similar backgrounds) then you'd have no problem with it right?
    I've never used nor endorsed Chomsky. See what I mean about you carrying your stereotype with you, and going where the person you're speaking with didn't?

    Please do more than "look at it".... Read it, and answer what I highlighted.



    You omit much in forming your conclusions about what Bush did while in office, so in essence yes, you do "lie" about Bush.
    I do nothing of the kind.

    Oh please....Stop already with the attempt to place yourself above that fray....Everyone in this site has perceptions about whom they are speaking about. You can no more separate that thought pattern from thought anymore than you can hold your breath for 10 minutes.
    That's another misreading.

    Oh yes you have....I don't believe I have ever read a single post of yours, and that covers over 10 years of posts, that has anything good to say about republicans, or conservatives.
    Then your memory is poor.


    No, that is your typical, silly little dodge to avoid speaking to inconvenient facts.
    When you say something not true, it's not a dodge to tell you. Calling it a dodge is your tactic. Not mine.

    Oh, excuse me, your arguments of things not being "the same" or "like" is a method of defense whether you consciously know that or not.
    Again, nothing of the kind. You expect the reaction form liberals or democrats to be the same when the acts are not the same. If your memory was any good, you'd remember I agrued Bush would be better to act without occupation as the reaction would fire, but die quickly. Even point to that idea being expressed in Imperial Hubris.

    So then where is the level of condemnation from you toward Obama? It is conspicuously missing.
    It was expressed in the threads we had concerning his invading Libya, and in his drone strikes, and when he went with the surge for a limited time in Afghanistan. Somehow you always miss it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Senate report: Attacks in Benghazi could have been prevented

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Lots of idiots have credentials. I've explained before why he fails to impress.


    I've never used nor endorsed Chomsky. See what I mean about you carrying your stereotype with you, and going where the person you're speaking with didn't?

    Please do more than "look at it".... Read it, and answer what I highlighted.





    I do nothing of the kind.



    That's another misreading.



    Then your memory is poor.




    When you say something not true, it's not a dodge to tell you. Calling it a dodge is your tactic. Not mine.



    Again, nothing of the kind. You expect the reaction form liberals or democrats to be the same when the acts are not the same. If your memory was any good, you'd remember I agrued Bush would be better to act without occupation as the reaction would fire, but die quickly. Even point to that idea being expressed in Imperial Hubris.



    It was expressed in the threads we had concerning his invading Libya, and in his drone strikes, and when he went with the surge for a limited time in Afghanistan. Somehow you always miss it.
    ok, so I will await your addressing the specifics from Mr. Hanson I provided.
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