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Thread: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Liberal Obama supporters always ask the question about what would like Obama to do? Well, when he comes out like this, threatening to just go around congress, and make law himself void of the legislative process, then it is no longer the country I recognize...I guess Podesta is already making his presence felt.

    It is no wonder we think Obama is dangerous, because HE IS!

    We have a process in this country to do these things Obama wants to do, and it certainly is not unilaterally. We don't have a King, we don't have a dictator, what we have in Obama may actually be worse.
    Nothing worse than disingenuous or ignorant outrage..... Actually Obama has about the lowest number of executive orders issued of any president in the last 100 years...

    Executive Orders Disposition Tables Index

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No, that is a strawman. The main driver of our debt is our entitlement spending.

    What I am pointing out is that government spending at large generally represents a less productive allocation of resources. You get plenty of allocations that increase net productivity by solving tragedy of the commons (enforcement of contracts, defense, public environmental protection), but those allocations sadly do not make up all or even at this point a majority of what the federal government does. Reducing government spending, therefore, during an economic downturn effectively returns a greater portion of available resources back to more productive uses, thereby aiding the economy, not burdening it.
    I understand some spending may be more beneficial than other kind of spending (especially when it comes to the multiplier effect), however with that said, spending is spending and it does bring up GDP. It also circulates in the economy. My question is how can spending be a "burden" if the idea is to bring up GDP?

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Nothing worse than disingenuous or ignorant outrage..... Actually Obama has about the lowest number of executive orders issued of any president in the last 100 years...

    Executive Orders Disposition Tables Index
    Not sure that is true, but I would argue type, and intent over amount.
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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Not sure that is true, but I would argue type, and intent over amount.
    Well, I just gave you the index of Executive Orders since Hoover... its pretty easy to verify my statement that Obama has actually issued amongst the least of all presidents..... and if you want to run with your argument about the substance of the EO,s, well, the reference is also your raw data...

    Executive Orders Disposition Tables Index

    To date, however, all you have argued is your impressions.... and your impression that Obama is running amuck in issuing EO's is just flat out wrong.

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I understand some spending may be more beneficial than other kind of spending (especially when it comes to the multiplier effect), however with that said, spending is spending and it does bring up GDP. It also circulates in the economy. My question is how can spending be a "burden" if the idea is to bring up GDP?
    The multiplier effect is, with few exceptions mostly tied to those same aforementioned tragedies of the commons, generally bunk.

    Spending is indeed spending - however, it does not actually bring up real GDP over the long haul, and, for a simple reason. All of the wealth that government spends it has to get somewhere.

    That's where the multiplier effect calculations always fall flat - they never include a cost-benefit analysis of that which includes the cost of getting that money in the first place. They just treat government spending as though it was magical money that fell from the heavens, or perhaps was grown on a money tree in DC. If you take a hundred dollars from a business and then pay a government employee thirty-five bucks to purchase sixty-five bucks worth of goods from the same business, the profit of which is five bucks, you haven't actually helped the business.

    Furthermore, GDP for the purpose of GDP is useless. A base figure, a score. The score itself is meaningless, what it is supposed to be keeping score of is not (that, for example, is why they intelligently altered the way in which they score GDP last year). Attempting to manipulate GDP in order to look better on paper does not actually make your economy any better in reality.

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The multiplier effect is, with few exceptions mostly tied to those same aforementioned tragedies of the commons, generally bunk.

    Spending is indeed spending - however, it does not actually bring up real GDP over the long haul, and, for a simple reason. All of the wealth that government spends it has to get somewhere.

    That's where the multiplier effect calculations always fall flat - they never include a cost-benefit analysis of that which includes the cost of getting that money in the first place. They just treat government spending as though it was magical money that fell from the heavens, or perhaps was grown on a money tree in DC. If you take a hundred dollars from a business and then pay a government employee thirty-five bucks to purchase sixty-five bucks worth of goods from the same business, the profit of which is five bucks, you haven't actually helped the business.

    Furthermore, GDP for the purpose of GDP is useless. A base figure, a score. The score itself is meaningless, what it is supposed to be keeping score of is not (that, for example, is why they intelligently altered the way in which they score GDP last year). Attempting to manipulate GDP in order to look better on paper does not actually make your economy any better in reality.
    The idea of government stimulus is short term. It is to be used until the economy is kicked back into health. GDP is gathered through consumer spending, government spending and investment. Two of those things the government cannot control, but one they most certainly can but in this case choose not to for whatever reason. They did try to give tax cuts back to consumers to try and spend which help (but very little). It is not as effective as things like public works. We did very little of it. Once we can kick in the first two then business investment will happen. Business will only invest in inventory and equipment if they feel they have a need. Let's face it, the economy is still sluggish. The only place its picked up is in low wage part time jobs.

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    The idea of government stimulus is short term. It is to be used until the economy is kicked back into health.
    Sure. The main problem being, by taking resources from the more productive portion of the economy and putting them into the less productive portion of the economy, it makes it harder for the economy to "kick back into health".


    It's like discovering that building muscle requires that you eat more, so you decide to consume 20 twinkies a day. You are actually screwing yourself, not building.

    GDP is gathered through consumer spending, government spending and investment.
    Loosely. For example, we just changed the formula to better account for intellectual property (such as, for example, software). As pointed out, it's a measurement, not the actual economy itself. I like GNP better, frankly, or GNI.

    Two of those things the government cannot control, but one they most certainly can but in this case choose not to for whatever reason. They did try to give tax cuts back to consumers to try and spend which help (but very little).
    Even by Keynesian measures it's foolish, as taxpayers tend to utilize windfalls to pay down debt or build up emergency funds during times of economic duress. However, (again) we then increased tax rates, which Keynes also said was a blindingly stupid thing to do during economic troubles.

    It is not as effective as things like public works.
    Public works are useless unless they solve a tragedy of the commons issue. A road from nowhere to nowhere is a waste of resources, and a classic example of what I am talking about when I point out that government tends to ineffectively allocate resources.

    We did very little of it.
    what the... we had a 800 billion dollar so-called "stimulus" package for that kind of crap.

    Once we can kick in the first two then business investment will happen. Business will only invest in inventory and equipment if they feel they have a need. Let's face it, the economy is still sluggish.
    Precisely. And so the last thing it needs is the government taking more resources from it to put towards less-productive venues.

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure. The main problem being, by taking resources from the more productive portion of the economy and putting them into the less productive portion of the economy, it makes it harder for the economy to "kick back into health".


    It's like discovering that building muscle requires that you eat more, so you decide to consume 20 twinkies a day. You are actually screwing yourself, not building.



    Loosely. For example, we just changed the formula to better account for intellectual property (such as, for example, software). As pointed out, it's a measurement, not the actual economy itself. I like GNP better, frankly, or GNI.



    Even by Keynesian measures it's foolish, as taxpayers tend to utilize windfalls to pay down debt or build up emergency funds during times of economic duress. However, (again) we then increased tax rates, which Keynes also said was a blindingly stupid thing to do during economic troubles.



    Public works are useless unless they solve a tragedy of the commons issue. A road from nowhere to nowhere is a waste of resources, and a classic example of what I am talking about when I point out that government tends to ineffectively allocate resources.



    what the... we had a 800 billion dollar so-called "stimulus" package for that kind of crap.



    Precisely. And so the last thing it needs is the government taking more resources from it to put towards less-productive venues.
    The 800 billion claim on stimulus spending is deceptive when addressing public works and the multiplier effect. If you look at the break down of the stimulus, only a small fraction (27.5 billion) went toward highway and bridge repair. The largest chunk of money went toward individual tax cuts. Nearly four times more money from the stimulus went toward these tax cuts. Like I already mentioned, they allowed minimal results compared to what was expected from public works due to the multiplier effect. I will agree with you the results were not so great due to many factors including money from tax cuts being used for both savings and paying down household debt. That is were the frustration comes in when talking about stimulus spending. It wasn't used in the right places. We continue to have a sluggish economy with mainly low wage jobs replacing the majority of median waged jobs. The government is only useless in allocating resources when elected officials appease their moneyed constitutes rather than the general population. And, I will agree with your last point that government has put forth our tax dollars toward less productive venues like tax cuts for the wealthy thinking something would trickle down. The Gini index doesn't lie. The money has been trickling up and staying there.....wages for many have either stagnated for decades or declined. Time to stop believing such a theory. We need to be proactive and focus on good policies to grow the economy rather than fairy tales.

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    what the... we had a 800 billion dollar so-called "stimulus" package for that kind of crap.
    .
    No no, you misunderstood that, 800 billion was the max for each individual recipient... The last reported numbers on that was 27.7 trillion dollars worth of bailout, with about 700 billion paid back.

    That's a bit of a side issue though, so we'll leave it at that.

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    Re: Obama On Executive Actions: ‘I’ve Got A Pen And I’ve Got A Phone’

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Well, I just gave you the index of Executive Orders since Hoover... its pretty easy to verify my statement that Obama has actually issued amongst the least of all presidents..... and if you want to run with your argument about the substance of the EO,s, well, the reference is also your raw data...

    Executive Orders Disposition Tables Index

    To date, however, all you have argued is your impressions.... and your impression that Obama is running amuck in issuing EO's is just flat out wrong.
    We have a long way to go in this second term, and his promise to use the pen, and phone, plus bringing in a hack like Podesta show a possible move toward writing a whole lot more in that time left. Plus to compare you'd have to look at the type of EO's written by each President to see how they used that power, and as far as I am concerned, none have been so brazen in side stepping congress with that power than has Obama.
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