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Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Superfly said:
Seems to me it's up to the State of Texas, and everyone else can STFU..
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Unless, of course, some "group" decides to take up the cause and push it into the courts.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
Unless, of course, some "group" decides to take up the cause and push it into the courts.
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Yeah, or maybe Jeb Bush can move to Texas and throw himself into it like he did the Schiavo case.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

I am frequently surprised by the odd things people think and say about biology and healthcare... I am uncertain how people think it is that the mother would "decompose" or how this situation corresponds to the fictional Dr. Frankenstein and his work with electricity and flesh golems...
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Superfly said:
Yeah, or maybe Jeb Bush can move to Texas and throw himself into it like he did the Schiavo case.
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I'm pretty sure Jeb Bush regrets any involvement in that mess.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
I am frequently surprised by the odd things people think and say about biology and healthcare... I am uncertain how people think it is that the mother would "decompose" or how this situation corresponds to the fictional Dr. Frankenstein and his work with electricity and flesh golems...
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I'm not so surprised - medicine is pretty foreign to most of us and not something we readily understand - the concept of "dead" yet on "life support" seems a contradiction and so it appears that a "corpse" is being used to incubate.

I don't fault people for not understanding - hell, there's lots I don't understand about the process and the possible outcomes - but I do fault and completely don't understand those who don't want any attempts made to save the unborn child.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
Unless, of course, some "group" decides to take up the cause and push it into the courts.
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Time is not on the side of anyone who wants to see this kid killed.

Even were a judge to rule it ok to turn off the life support, there would be appeals.

The kid is better off in his or her mother in a neuroICU than in a neonatalICU at 24 weeks... but the latter at least becomes possible soon.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
Unfortunately, this unborn child seems to have no family, at least not a loving one, and so the medical community or at least this hospital community will take on that role and do their best. To me, it would be no different if the woman had been 8 months pregnant and the husband said I don't want you to operate and save the child - let them go in peace.

There have been babies dumped in trash cans and left in bathroom stalls that have been found and saved through the caring of strangers and the medical community. These children had families who made decisions to let the babies die. Far as I'm concerned, any family that abandons even the smallest hope of saving the weakest among us can STFU themselves.
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John, seems like the husband and the woman's mother are suing the hospital to keep the fetus alive. I can understand this. They've lost a loved on and are hanging on to hope for a memory. I understand their desire and wish them the best in a tragic situation.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

sawdust said:
John, seems like the husband and the woman's mother are suing the hospital to keep the fetus alive. I can understand this. They've lost a loved on and are hanging on to hope for a memory. I understand their desire and wish them the best in a tragic situation.
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unfortunately, no, you have this kind of backwards. the father and the grandparents are suing to make the hospital kill the kid.

the hospital, however, is not going to do this.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
unfortunately, no, you have this kind of backwards. the father and the grandparents are suing to make the hospital kill the kid.

the hospital, however, is not going to do this.
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Honestly I haven't been following this but I did read the article that started this thread. This is what it starts with.

Erick Munoz of Fort Wort, Texas, found his wife Marlise unconscious on the kitchen floor on November 26
She had suffered a pulmonary embolism and has been brain dead since
Munoz and Marlise's mother are now suing the hospital who say that Texas law prevents them from turning off her ventilator, against their wishes
Mother of one, Munoz is now 20 weeks pregnant
It is unknown how the fetus was affected after Marlise was deprived of oxygen for an hour


Read more: Family of brain dead 20-week pregnant mom suing hospital refusing to turn off her life support until the baby can be born | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

That's all I know.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

sawdust said:
Honestly I haven't been following this but I did read the article that started this thread. This is what it starts with.

Erick Munoz of Fort Wort, Texas, found his wife Marlise unconscious on the kitchen floor on November 26
She had suffered a pulmonary embolism and has been brain dead since
Munoz and Marlise's mother are now suing the hospital who say that Texas law prevents them from turning off her ventilator, against their wishes
Mother of one, Munoz is now 20 weeks pregnant
It is unknown how the fetus was affected after Marlise was deprived of oxygen for an hour


Read more: Family of brain dead 20-week pregnant mom suing hospital refusing to turn off her life support until the baby can be born | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

That's all I know.
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They are suing the hospital because the hospital refuses to take her off life support, despite the fact that the husband and family want her removed.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
There is no race. There is no decomposition yet. The mother is brain dead. Decomposition will happen once the life support stops.
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You cannot provide "life support" for a corpse. And, yes, decomposition can and will occur whether they hook a ventilator up to her body or not just as it did/does in the Jahi case.
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Napoleon said:
You cannot provide "life support" for a corpse.
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Yes, Mrs. Munoz is dead. No one disputes that. Brain death is death.

Her brain is dead, which means she is dead.

However, you can in fact keep her corpse's other organs alive for a very, very long time... in a tiny fraction of that potential time, it should be possible to save the kid. At that point you turn of the life support, and not before.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

I'll post it again:

I find it absolutely disgusting anyone would want to see this baby die when the baby can live.

What the **** is wrong with some people?

Furthermore I love how people are now talking about "fathers rights" when in situations like this the typical progressive mantra is "its a womans body" - well shes a vegetable now....
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
Yes, Mrs. Munoz is dead. No one disputes that. Brain death is death. Her brain is dead, which means she is dead. However, you can in fact keep that corpse's other organs alive for a very, very long time... in a tiny fraction of that potential time, the kid will be able to be saved.
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You can slow the process of decomposition but you cannot delay it indefinitely. The body is likely showing signs of decomposition already. No one has ever attempted to bring a fetus to term and deliver it from a months old cadaver nor should such a disgusting medical experiment be allowed.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Napoleon said:
You can slow the process of decomposition but you cannot delay it indefinitely.
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Uhhh, sort of. In fact, you can be on these sorts of system for decades. You will still age and the systems will eventually fail.

The body is likely showing signs of decomposition already.
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Nope. Don't be ridiculous.

No one has ever attempted to bring a fetus to term and deliver it from a months old cadaver nor should such a disgusting medical experiment be allowed.
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"Months old cadaver" is misrepresenting the situation a bit. Yes, Mrs. Munoz is brain dead. Her body is not going to breathe on its own, the ventilator is doing that. She isn't going to eat or drink anything on her own - there's workarounds for that too. Without brainstem function, blood pressure won't be regulated... again... workarounds.

This isn't a "disgusting medical experiment." I don't know where you get this crazy notion.

In Michigan a woman named Christine Bolden suffered an aneurysm while pregnant with twins and was declared braindead. They kept her on a ventilator for quite some time. Twins were delivered healthy via C-section. That's hardly the only case, even, that's just recent enough I can find it via a quick Google.

Granted in that case the family members weren't acting crazy and selfish...
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
Uhhh, sort of. In fact, you can be on these sorts of system for decades. You will still age and the systems will eventually fail. Nope. Don't be ridiculous. "Months old cadaver" is misrepresenting the situation a bit. Yes, Mrs. Munoz is brain dead. Her body is not going to breathe on its own, the ventilator is doing that.
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I don't think you have a good understanding of medicine. The body WILL decompose whether it is hooked up to machines or not just as it was/is in the case of Jahi McMath. The machines may slow down the process, but certainly not by decades. And referring to the body as a months old cadaver is not a misrepresentation at all. This woman has been dead for two months.
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

AliHajiSheik said:
Wow, nothing good in this story. If a healthy woman has a right to choose, then since a brain dead woman cannot make that decision, then I would prefer to go with the wishes of the husband over the wishes of the state--regardless of what the husband chooses.
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Is what the father wants what the mother would have wanted? Since we don't know, then it is only right to keep the mother viable to deliver her baby.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

danarhea said:
Is what the father wants what the mother would have wanted? Since we don't know, then it is only right to keep the mother viable to deliver her baby.
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Except that the mother is not viable. She has been dead for two months.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Napoleon said:
Except that the mother is not viable. She has been dead for two months.
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So, was the mother planning to abort the fetus? If so, then you might have an argument. But you don't.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Napoleon said:
I don't think you have a good understanding of medicine.
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What a coincidence, I'm kind of getting that feeling about you.

The body WILL decompose whether it is hooked up to machines or not just as it was/is in the case of Jahi McMath. The machines may slow down the process, but certainly not by decades.
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Yes, the condition of the body and its remaining living tissues will degrade. Did I say otherwise? The dead brain, for example, that's going to decompose immediately. No stopping that.

When you say "it will slow down the process," well, good enough, no one here was of the opinion that we could or even should stop the process, just delay it.

The kid doesn't need all that much more time. You may be right about the decades thing, I may have the wires of the ol' memory bank crossed with folks merely in a coma or PVS on a ventilator... but the point is you can do a lot with vasoactive drugs and a ventilator to keep a body physiologically working and in this case you medically absolutely should, because there is still a patient you can save.

Again, I remind you of the twins in Michigan and your insistance that this has somehow never happened and could never turn out well. In both cases, quite incorrect.

And referring to the body as a months old cadaver is not a misrepresentation at all. This woman has been dead for two months.
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Yes, the organism that was Mrs. Munoz is dead, because her brain was deprived of oxygen and it died. I'm not arguing with you on this point. Brain death is death.

However, most of the cells and tissues and organs that were part of her body aren't dead yet, courtesy of the life support. As a result, her kid is still getting nutrition and oxygen right now. If the rest of Mrs. Munoz's body was dead, then there would be no point to any of this care, as the kid would now be dead. Do you see the flaw yet in what you are saying?
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

danarhea said:
Is what the father wants what the mother would have wanted? Since we don't know, then it is only right to keep the mother viable to deliver her baby.
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What the mother would have wanted is irrelevant. The husband is next of kin and he wants this game to come to an end. Even if he weren't, the mother's parents are next of kin after him and they also want this charade ended. What's keeping her alive is the law. I haven't seen that information sourced but I'm giving folks the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't make this scenario any less of a farce just it's legal.

People keep saying "what would the mother want", her speculative wishes are completely irrelevant.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

This isn't a game.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

danarhea said:
So, was the mother planning to abort the fetus? If so, then you might have an argument. But you don't.
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/basement like.

This should actually be the end of the thread, but I'm sure it won't.
 
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