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Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

nota bene said:
Earlier, someone linked to an LA Times article that discusses one 2010 study:

Researchers from Heidelberg University in Germany scoured the medical literature for cases of pregnant women who were kept on life support after being declared brain-dead. They were able to find details on 19 such cases that were reported from 1982 to 2010.

Twelve of those fetuses were delivered by caesarean section and survived for some period of time after birth. One of the babies, born prematurely after just 25 weeks of gestation, died of an infection at the age of 30 days. Six of the others were developing normally as of the time that case reports about them were written (at ages ranging from 3 to 24 months), though a few of them had suffered from infant respiratory distress syndrome. The condition of the other five babies was unknown.

Marlise Munoz: Can a fetus survive after mother becomes brain-dead? - latimes.com
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Thanks for that - it's very relevant, in my view, and gives me hope that the hospital in this case isn't simply on a useless power trip but may, in fact, be able to protect and promote a new life. No guarantees in life, except death, but sometimes even the least likely path is worth taking.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rjay said:
She really isn't on life support, is she? She is dead. This experiment is keeping her organs and the rest of her body from decaying, as would normally happen to a dead person. This experiment is keeping her loved ones from grieving and trying to get on with their lives. This has got to be the most intrusive and invasive a government can get into the lives of it's citizens.

This medical experiment of using a corpse as an incubator is about as gruesome as it gets. Have they lab tested this with other dead mammals? I am sure the answer to that question is no. Who would fund such a rupugnent experiment? What type of person would even come up with the idea.

Have we as a society lost all sense of human dignity?
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In my view, the loss of human dignity is perfectly displayed in describing honest attempts to save the life of a developing human being as gruesome and repugnant.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

minnie616 said:
Not necessarily.

Paramedics have quickly removed babies at accident scenes when a pregnant woman near full term was killed in auto accident.

Some of those babies survive...others don't.
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I see - not necessarily, but definitely not impossible. I'm guessing, not being a doctor, that if a pregnant woman who has recently passed could be put on life support prior to her child being removed, there would be a greater chance of survival.

In any event, from your "liking" a comment that describes the hospital's efforts as gruesome and repugnant that if life support were required, even at an advanced stage, that effort at saving a young life would be equally gruesome and repugnant or is there some magic timeline where saving developing life is no longer gruesome and repugnant and perhaps heroic and delightful?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

apdst said:
6. Odd perspective for a parent.
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Are you calling whether I'm actually a parent into question? Fine. We can settle this matter easily. I can post pictures of myself with my kids and you can post pictures of yourself with yours. You down, brother?
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
I see - not necessarily, but definitely not impossible. I'm guessing, not being a doctor, that if a pregnant woman who has recently passed could be put on life support prior to her child being removed, there would be a greater chance of survival.

In any event, from your "liking" a comment that describes the hospital's efforts as gruesome and repugnant that if life support were required, even at an advanced stage, that effort at saving a young life would be equally gruesome and repugnant or is there some magic timeline where saving developing life is no longer gruesome and repugnant and perhaps heroic and delightful?
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Forcing a dead woman to be on life support so her body can be used as an incubator for months against her wishes, her husbands wishes and her parents wishes, is what makes this case gruesome and repugnant.

If her husband wanted her to be on life support to try to give the fetus a chance to continue to develop than no, in that case it would not be gruesome and repugnant.

If she were my daughter though, I would let her expire in dignity and peace because I know each of my my daughters well and I know both of them would not want to be hooked up to a machine if she were brain dead.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Hatuey said:
Are you calling whether I'm actually a parent into question? Fine. We can settle this matter easily. I can post pictures of myself with my kids and you can post pictures of yourself with yours. You down, brother?
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Not at all.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

minnie616 said:
Forcing a dead woman to be on life support so her body can be used as an incubator for months against her wishes, her husbands wishes and her parents wishes, is what makes this case gruesome and repugnant.

If her husband wanted her to be on life support to try to give the fetus a chance to continue to develop than no, in that case it would not be gruesome and repugnant.

If she were my daughter though, I would let her expire in dignity and peace because I know each of my my daughters well and I know both of them would not want to be hooked up to a machine if she were brain dead.
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I absolutely love that some of the same people who think homosexuality isn't normal even though it's found in thousands of species are sitting here arguing that what is basically consists of turning a persons body into an egg from the Alien movies, without her or her husband's consent and then hoping that a facehugger doesn't come out - is somehow normal.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rjay said:
This medical experiment of using a corpse as an incubator is about as gruesome as it gets. Have they lab tested this with other dead mammals? I am sure the answer to that question is no. Who would fund such a rupugnent experiment? What type of person would even come up with the idea.
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you would be wrong. the answer to the question is "yes". There are at least 19 other cases, since 1982. In 12 of those cases the fetus survived until birth and lived for some time afterwards. In the other seven cases, the fetus was terminated via miscarriage.


In April 2012 a brain dead woman gave birth to twin sons. Today both sons, Nicholas and Alexander Bolden, are still alive and doing well

In November of last year a brain dead woman gave birth to a child after being on life support for 3 months.
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

minnie616 said:
Forcing a dead woman to be on life support so her body can be used as an incubator for months against her wishes, her husbands wishes and her parents wishes, is what makes this case gruesome and repugnant.

If her husband wanted her to be on life support to try to give the fetus a chance to continue to develop than no, in that case it would not be gruesome and repugnant.

If she were my daughter though, I would let her expire in dignity and peace because I know each of my my daughters well and I know both of them would not want to be hooked up to a machine if she were brain dead.
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Well, we don't know what the dead woman's wishes were - she's dead, and we only have the husband's word on that and as I've said before, I don't know a single woman who'd say "if I'm going to die, please let me take my growing child with me".

Secondly, even if we credit what the woman's wishes may be, and we know the husband's wishes - do we know the wishes of the only living being who's life is being decided by all these other people? As was stated above, there's no guarantee this developing child is in any way damaged, and even if he/she is there is no way of knowing the extent of that damage - as "nota bene"s post notes, there have been cases where a child has survived and thrived in such a situation. Even if we credit your assumption that the child will be damaged, who's to say that damaged child won't have a fulfilling and enjoyable existence if given the chance? Clearly, in comparison to yours or mine, the child's life may be far more physically and/or mentally challenging, but I don't know of many people who have been born with afflictions and wished they'd never been born. That's usually left to those who acquire an affliction after several years of "normal" life.

As for knowing what your own daughters want, if it's not in writing, giving you specific instructions, then you really don't know what they would be thinking or want at that crucial moment in time.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Hatuey said:
I absolutely love that some of the same people who think homosexuality isn't normal even though it's found in thousands of species are sitting here arguing that what is basically consists of turning a persons body into an egg from the Alien movies, without her or her husband's consent and then hoping that a facehugger doesn't come out - is somehow normal.
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Perhaps you'd like to name some of those cretins you refer to, or are you satisfied to tar everyone you disagree with?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

I can't even believe anyone would be opposed to this.

I can't believe there are people out there that would like to see this child die - like it's some sort of civil liberty to murder someone.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
you would be wrong. the answer to the question is "yes". There are at least 19 other cases, since 1982. In 12 of those cases the fetus survived until birth and lived for some time afterwards. In the other seven cases, the fetus was terminated via miscarriage.

.
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It should also be noted that all of the fetuses that survived until birth were over 14 weeks gestation when the woman was declared brain dead.

1 was 15 weeks gestation and the other 11 were further along in gestation.

2 that were 13 weeks gestation , 1 that was 14 weeks gestation, and 1 that was 15 weeks gestation when the woman became brain dead were miscarried.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

minnie616 said:
It should also be noted that all of the fetuses that survived until birth were over 14 weeks gestation when the woman was declared brain dead.

1 was 15 weeks gestation and the other 11 were further along in gestation.

2 that were 13 weeks gestation , 1 that was 14 weeks gestation, and 1 that was 15 weeks gestation when the woman became brain dead were miscarried.
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so where's the problem? if the fetus is going to miscarry in a couple of weeks anyway, why rush it?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
...

As for knowing what your own daughters want, if it's not in writing, giving you specific instructions, then you really don't know what they would be thinking or want at that crucial moment in time.
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It is in writing.
All our children their, spouses, my husband and myself have living will directives in writing.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

I'm sure people will be happy to take advantage here but altho I stand by the father and woman's mother and believe they should have the final word, this is NOT like abortion IMO. In an abortion, a fetus is killed or rendered painfree immediately. What we're talking about here is a fetus starving and wasting away for however long it takes to die.

I do not believe that abortion is cruel...no matter how many pro-lifers like to bring up crackpot or incompetent practitioners that can exist in any medical field...but I cannot stand the thought of any creature in pain unnecessarily and I wouldnt treat my dogs like that. I believe in euthenization but not letting something just waste away.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

minnie616 said:
It is in writing.
All our children their, spouses, my husband and myself have living will directives in writing.
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a living will doesn't supercede the law....

If you don't like it, lobby to change the law.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Lursa said:
What we're talking about here is a fetus starving and wasting away for however long it takes to die.
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not even close. as long as the mother is on life support, the fetus isn't going to starve and waste away.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

minnie616 said:
Forcing a dead woman to be on life support so her body can be used as an incubator for months against her wishes, her husbands wishes and her parents wishes, is what makes this case gruesome and repugnant.

If her husband wanted her to be on life support to try to give the fetus a chance to continue to develop than no, in that case it would not be gruesome and repugnant.

If she were my daughter though, I would let her expire in dignity and peace because I know each of my my daughters well and I know both of them would not want to be hooked up to a machine if she were brain dead.
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No, what is "gruesome and repugnant" is a father and grandparents giving up on a member of their family appropriate of nothing, asking the hospital to suffocate them for unfathomable reasons.

One hopes these folks come to their senses and stop being so horrible and selfish.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
No, what is "gruesome and repugnant" us a father and grandparents giving up on a member of their family appropriate of nothing, asking the hospital to suffocate them for unfathomable reasons.

One hopes these folks come to their senses and stop being so horrible and selfish.
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I just don't get it. As a father, I would want to give my unborn child every opportunity to survive.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
not even close. as long as the mother is on life support, the fetus isn't going to starve and waste away.
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Pish-posh. Why let science or reason get in the way of a perfectly good hysterical rant?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
I just don't get it. As a father, I would want to give my unborn child every opportunity to survive.
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It makes no sense at all. Grief can make you crazy, I suppose, but that sympathy and that excuse only goes so far.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
not even close. as long as the mother is on life support, the fetus isn't going to starve and waste away.
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Duh? I'm talking about if the mother is removed from life support which is what the family wants.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Lursa said:
Duh? I'm talking about if the mother is removed from life support which is what the family wants.
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my bad. however, once the mother is removed from life support, the fetus would die rather quickly from oxygen deprivation.
 
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