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Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support


That doesn't even make sense as a reply. Par for the course. Come back to the forum once you graduate from HS.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support


I would think the fetal health would heavily depend on WHY the pregnant woman became brain dead. A pregnant woman in the hospital that bursts a brain aneurysm and becomes brain dead, but suffered very brief cardiorespiratory collapse and immediately placed on life support might have a better chance of delivering a healthy baby than a mother that suffered prolonged hypoxia and a prolonged down time .

I do not think all situations are created equally.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

If she were 8 months pregnant ...the doctors could do a c section , then let woman die with dignity.

Absolutely. Even earlier.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Brain function from loss of oxygen cannot be detected by an ultrasound.

Many babies who were deprived oxygen for more than a couple of minutes are born with cerebral paisley .

That was my point as well. How they came to being brain dead has absolute bearing on how the fetus develops. And to be certain, damage may not appear on maternal tests.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

see post 316

and FWIW, we do have the technology to determine if the kid will be born with horrible deformations as the pregnancy progresses. If the tests show normal, let it ride. if not, then they can pull the plug.
If the kid is born retarded then at least it'll happen in Texas where nobody would notice anyway.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

I am not bigoted, blunt perhaps, I watch how some post, how they distort the law, you keep saying 'kid' as if the fetus is viable.

You say "the fetus" like a slur, like it means less than human.

I say "kid" because it's age-neutral, it's not a technical term, so it doesn't mean anything specific. When I say child, even though there is a generic denotation of child that applies, you people fuss. When I'm already accommodating to prevent your whining and fussing, you don't get to whine or fuss about semantics anymore. Sorry. That's how it works.

I didn't distort anything.

It is still a fetus and by law can be terminated under many conditions and not be a murder.

Well under perfectly valid Texas law, abortion is illegal. Under the unconstitutional tyrannical nonsense standard of Roe v. Wade, those laws "violated the Constitution" so Texas has to allow abortions under certain circumstances. This ain't one of them. The dead lady didn't kill her kid. If she had, then that ventilator would be off right now.

A gunman can't shoot a pregnant lady but the doctors can stop keeping a dead woman's body functioning if the next of kin agrees and the fetus is under the legal limit.

Nope. The doctors can't stop providing life support for the kid's sake and the next of kin's agreement doesn't mean **** other than to establish that the next of kin doesn't have the kid's best interests at heart. The kid has a right to life.

If nothing else it is abortion on demand

Bull****. Starvation and suffocation isn't any kind of abortion method.

and while Texas is doing it's utmost to strangle that law the doctor who pulls the plug on the dead mother has privileges at the hospital and the woman has a DNR.

There was no DNR.
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

If she were 8 months pregnant ...the doctors could do a c section , then let woman die with dignity.

Would she have to be on life support while being prepped, waiting, and during the operation?

If so, wouldn't that be against her supposed wishes? Do supposed wishes have a grace period where they can be ignored and after that enforced?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Brain function from loss of oxygen cannot be detected by an ultrasound.

Many babies who were deprived oxygen for more than a couple of minutes are born with cerebral paisley .

Will it be more readily known a few more weeks into development?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Would she have to be on life support while being prepped, waiting, and during the operation?

If so, wouldn't that be against her supposed wishes? Do supposed wishes have a grace period where they can be ignored and after that enforced?

Not necessarily.

Paramedics have quickly removed babies at accident scenes when a pregnant woman near full term was killed in auto accident.

Some of those babies survive...others don't.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Will it be more readily known a few more weeks into development?

Doctors can only see physical abnormalities from an ultra sound.

A few more weeks development will most like not make difference in what they are able to determine at this point.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Will it be more readily known a few more weeks into development?

Earlier, someone linked to an LA Times article that discusses one 2010 study:

Researchers from Heidelberg University in Germany scoured the medical literature for cases of pregnant women who were kept on life support after being declared brain-dead. They were able to find details on 19 such cases that were reported from 1982 to 2010.

Twelve of those fetuses were delivered by caesarean section and survived for some period of time after birth. One of the babies, born prematurely after just 25 weeks of gestation, died of an infection at the age of 30 days. Six of the others were developing normally as of the time that case reports about them were written (at ages ranging from 3 to 24 months), though a few of them had suffered from infant respiratory distress syndrome. The condition of the other five babies was unknown.

Marlise Munoz: Can a fetus survive after mother becomes brain-dead? - latimes.com
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

While I believe it's wrong to ignore family directives on this sort of thing, I'm really questioning whether the woman would have wanted to be taken off life support if she was pregnant. And I wonder why the husband wants the baby killed when there's a chance to save it.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

While I believe it's wrong to ignore family directives on this sort of thing, I'm really questioning whether the woman would have wanted to be taken off life support if she was pregnant. And I wonder why the husband wants the baby killed when there's a chance to save it.

She really isn't on life support, is she? She is dead. This experiment is keeping her organs and the rest of her body from decaying, as would normally happen to a dead person. This experiment is keeping her loved ones from grieving and trying to get on with their lives. This has got to be the most intrusive and invasive a government can get into the lives of it's citizens.

This medical experiment of using a corpse as an incubator is about as gruesome as it gets. Have they lab tested this with other dead mammals? I am sure the answer to that question is no. Who would fund such a rupugnent experiment? What type of person would even come up with the idea.

Have we as a society lost all sense of human dignity?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Earlier, someone linked to an LA Times article that discusses one 2010 study:

Researchers from Heidelberg University in Germany scoured the medical literature for cases of pregnant women who were kept on life support after being declared brain-dead. They were able to find details on 19 such cases that were reported from 1982 to 2010.

Twelve of those fetuses were delivered by caesarean section and survived for some period of time after birth. One of the babies, born prematurely after just 25 weeks of gestation, died of an infection at the age of 30 days. Six of the others were developing normally as of the time that case reports about them were written (at ages ranging from 3 to 24 months), though a few of them had suffered from infant respiratory distress syndrome. The condition of the other five babies was unknown.

Marlise Munoz: Can a fetus survive after mother becomes brain-dead? - latimes.com

That study shows that there's a chance, then, for the baby to survive. It's not disposable. 100% chance of survival? Nope. But there's never a 100% chance of survival. A woman can be the picture of health, and have a healthy baby, and a healthy pregnancy throughout, and still either had a stillborn child, or a child that dies of SIDS shortly thereafter. There are no guarantees - EVER. The best we can do is give them every chance of life.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

She really isn't on life support, is she? She is dead. This experiment is keeping her organs and the rest of her body from decaying, as would normally happen to a dead person. This experiment is keeping her loved ones from grieving and trying to get on with their lives. This has got to be the most intrusive and invasive a government can get into the lives of it's citizens.

There is nothing "experimental" about this. The treatment being given is for the kid.

This medical experiment of using a corpse as an incubator is about as gruesome as it gets. Have they lab tested this with other dead mammals? I am sure the answer to that question is no. Who would fund such a rupugnent experiment? What type of person would even come up with the idea.

No, I don't think we have any animal studies where we deliberately kill a pregnant dog or a cow or something then hook it up it a ventilator. That seems pretty pointless from a scientific perspective, and expensive to boot. Too many variables...

I suppose it is possible something like this could have happened with veterinary care... but I've never heard of it.

It has happened dozens of times with humans however, and we continue to give life support to the mom for the kid's sake because the kid gets that oxygen and that nutrition. This is hardly unheard of.

Have we as a society lost all sense of human dignity?

Well since so many of you seem to delight in needless, senseless death, it seems quite possible.
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Earlier, someone linked to an LA Times article that discusses one 2010 study:

Researchers from Heidelberg University in Germany scoured the medical literature for cases of pregnant women who were kept on life support after being declared brain-dead. They were able to find details on 19 such cases that were reported from 1982 to 2010.

Twelve of those fetuses were delivered by caesarean section and survived for some period of time after birth. One of the babies, born prematurely after just 25 weeks of gestation, died of an infection at the age of 30 days. Six of the others were developing normally as of the time that case reports about them were written (at ages ranging from 3 to 24 months), though a few of them had suffered from infant respiratory distress syndrome. The condition of the other five babies was unknown.

Marlise Munoz: Can a fetus survive after mother becomes brain-dead? - latimes.com


The authors of that study said the study could NOT be used to determine
the likelihood that a fetus could survive after its mother became brain-dead.
But the authors of the study cautioned that their data were incomplete and could not be used to determine the likelihood that a fetus could survive after its mother became brain-dead. “The percentage of successful cases cannot be determined, because there are no reports describing failure of intensive maternal support from all medical centers,” they wrote.

Marlise Munoz: Can a fetus survive after mother becomes brain-dead? - latimes.com
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

She really isn't on life support, is she? She is dead. This experiment is keeping her organs and the rest of her body from decaying, as would normally happen to a dead person. This experiment is keeping her loved ones from grieving and trying to get on with their lives. This has got to be the most intrusive and invasive a government can get into the lives of it's citizens.

...

I agree.

The family wants to be able to say good bye and to let them rest in peace.

from this article:
Erick found Marlise at home Nov. 26. He performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation and called for an ambulance, and Marlise was taken to John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth.

Electric shocks and drugs started her heart again and it continued beating with mechanical support, but her brain waves were completely flat. She had gone without breathing for too long to ever recover.

But when the heartbroken family was ready to say goodbye, hospital officials said they could not legally disconnect Marlise from life support. At the time she collapsed, she was 14 weeks’ pregnant.

And because doctors could still detect a fetal heartbeat, state law says Marlise Munoz’s body -- against her own and her family’s wishes -- must be maintained as an unwilling incubator.

“That poor fetus had the same lack of oxygen, the same electric shocks, the same chemicals that got her heart going again,” Machado said. “For all we know, it’s in the same condition that Marlise is in.”

Because of the fetus’ poor prognosis, the family has said publicly that they want to allow it to die peacefully, along with its mother.


<SNIP>

This isn’t about pro-life or pro-choice,” Machado said Friday. He apologized for crying as we spoke.

“We want to say goodbye. We want to let them rest.”

Texas denies pregnant woman's grieving family the right to say goodbye | Dallas Morning News
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Physiologically speaking, in and of itself, the brain death of Mrs. Munoz would not have an impact on the health of her kid.

It's what caused the brain death, the lack of adequate oxygenation going to her brain, now that's the rub...

We don't know what caused the lack of adequate oxygenation going to her brain; the docs speculated about pulmonary embolism in a few articles.

Since we don't know that, we don't know much about the quality and quantity of blood flow to the kid during this time. All we know is that Mrs. Munoz's brain did not have an adequate supply. Since we're talking about blood clots anyway... well again, that's speculation. Could be a lot of things.

Since we don't really know about that, we have nothing but blind speculation about the long term health of the kid. In the short term, we have a steady, normal heartbeat from fetal monitoring.
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

The Clinical Outlook:

From the following article:

Carter told MedPage Today that the medications given to Munoz in the emergency department to resuscitate her would also have benefited the fetus. But, that the impact of the maternal incident itself is what poses the greatest risk.

"As we consider the impact of maternal illness, or an arrest, or episode of significant shock at 14 weeks, it's the fact that the fetus in utero also suffered the same phenomenon," Carter said.

Carter said the infant is at high risk of cerebral palsy.


Heine agreed. "The real issue has to do with the event that caused her to go on life support. That damage is really hard to predict.
We think that 80% to 90% of all cases of cerebral palsy are due to in utero events."

"About 20% of cardiac output goes to the utero-placental unit and serves the fetus,
so a maternal event such as has been described for this woman can't help but impact the fetal development in a negative fashion, and I would be very concerned about the impact that it has specifically on fetal brain development," Carter said.

A Brain-Dead Mother, a Million-Dollar Baby
 
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Okay, let's say - just for the sake of argument - that we all knew for a fact that the kid now has cerebral palsy.

So what? Cerebral palsy isn't a death sentence.

That's what I was thinking as I read her posts.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

If she were 8 months pregnant ...the doctors could do a c section , then let woman die with dignity.

die with dignity. what a ****ing joke. I have seen more than my fair share of death and I can tell you that there is no such thing as dying with dignity. you simply die.....
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

There are many developmental disorders that can arise when fetuses are deprived of oxygen in the womb .
From this article:

numerous developmental disorders that can arise when fetuses are deprived of oxygen in the womb --
including mental retardation, epilepsy, schizophrenia, autism, cerebral palsy and a range of other physical and mental problems.

Discovery suggests way to block fetal brain damage produced by oxygen deprivation
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

There are many developmental disorders that can arise when fetuses are deprived of oxygen in the womb .
From this article:

Discovery suggests way to block fetal brain damage produced by oxygen deprivation


Yes, there are bad things that can happen to a kid. I sure hope none of them happen to the kid. We don't know if any of them have.

All we know that the kid has a normal heartbeat and that no miscarriage has occurred, as it often does when things go egregiously wrong with growth and development.
 
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