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Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rocket88 said:
Well, and when the kid lives he'd obviously be stripped of his parental rights. Which is exactly how a small government doesn't intrude on people's lives.
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I wouldn't suggest you continue with that line of argument if you support current abortion law. It can only hurt your cause. Once you accept that you can be a parent to an unborn baby you have to accept that there is a baby to be a parent of, rather than a future baby.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
Sorry, that wasn't my point. I was simply referring to the facts, as JayDubya pointed out, that there was no written directive/order from the wife/mother in place, simply the "say so" of the husband and secondly, according to Texas law, even if there was a written directive, it has no force in law if there's a pregnancy involved. So what the husband is feeling or wants at the time is simply irrelevant emotion, likely driven by grief, but the law requires that the developing child be saved, if possible.

You can repeat as much as you want what you presume to be "her wishes", but there's nothing to verify what the husband is saying. And based on the fact that both the wife and husband were/are EMS professionals, knowing hospital procedures, if it was something they felt strongly about they would have it in writing.
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I don't presume to know anything. That is what the husband is doing and that is his job. I also realize why the husband is in the situation he is, and I understand the ramifications of the law. You're doing nothing more than playing Captain Obvious above.

Yes, I understand the situation.

Yes, I realize having a written directive is a catch 22, because that wouldn't force the state of Texas to turn off life support.

Yes, I understand this is happening because of the law.


We can argue, the pros and cons of the state law, but emotions, religion, wishes, etc. are all irrelevant nonsense at this point.
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Ethics and opinions are not irrelevant at this point… well, maybe to you because you live in Canada, and this has nothing to do with Canadian laws or Canadian legal precedent. The husband is suing the hospital, which is in America and regards American laws.

If you are not interested in doing nothing other than playing Cap. Obvious and pointing out why things are the way they are, then why are you here? :lol:



For what it's worth, I'm a strong proponent of such "end of life" directives and I also strongly support "assisted suicide" or whatever name they give it these days. But these are all issues related to an individual choosing their own path - those decisions should not impose a death sentence on another human being even if that other human being is only in the early stages of development.
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You're a strong proponent of "end of life directives," what does that mean? You think people should prolong death as a long as possible, and being alive outweighs a slow, painful death and living on life support? Just keep the heart beating as long as possible... screw death?

See, you're pro life and support assisted suicide? That blows me away. You look at death as a personal choice to be respected, and then you quote the pope in saying we have a culture that doesn't respect life. I am personally against assisted suicide. I don't support people in killing themselves and I wouldn't ever kill myself, because I am morally opposed to it. But yet, I realize that I am not in their position and pain. I can't really support it morally, legally is another matter. I wouldn't respect my mom doing something like that if she were old and in pain. I would fight her, and I would also respect her wishes in not wanting life support.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

digsbe said:
It makes perfect sense to keep a brain dead woman alive to save the life of the child. Why have 2 people die instead of just one?
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Imposing your religious beliefs on others again? How non-Christian Fundamentalist of you.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Hatuey said:
Imposing your religious beliefs on others again?
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Religious beliefs are the same as political beliefs, you just think imposing your preferred (political) beliefs is more moral than a person imposing their preferred (religious) beliefs.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Hatuey said:
Imposing your religious beliefs on others again? How non-Christian Fundamentalist of you.
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While digsbe in general does want to impose his religion on other people, that's not what he's doing right now. I'm an atheist and I see it the same way.

The mother is already dead, and that is a horrible tragedy. But why add the baby to the body count? If he has even a 1 in 100 chance he should deserve the right to try.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:
I don't presume to know anything. That is what the husband is doing and that is his job. I also realize why the husband is in the situation he is, and I understand the ramifications of the law. You're doing nothing more than playing Captain Obvious above.

Yes, I understand the situation.

Yes, I realize having a written directive is a catch 22, because that wouldn't force the state of Texas to turn off life support.

Yes, I understand this is happening because of the law.




Ethics and opinions are not irrelevant at this point… well, maybe to you because you live in Canada, and this has nothing to do with Canadian laws or Canadian legal precedent. The husband is suing the hospital, which is in America and regards American laws.

If you are not interested in doing nothing other than playing Cap. Obvious and pointing out why things are the way they are, then why are you here? :lol:





You're a strong proponent of "end of life directives," what does that mean? You think people should prolong death as a long as possible, and being alive outweighs a slow, painful death and living on life support? Just keep the heart beating as long as possible... screw death?

See, you're pro life and support assisted suicide? That blows me away. You look at death as a personal choice to be respected, and then you quote the pope in saying we have a culture that doesn't respect life. I am personally against assisted suicide. I don't support people in killing themselves and I wouldn't ever kill myself, because I am morally opposed to it. But yet, I realize that I am not in their position and pain. I can't really support it morally, legally is another matter. I wouldn't respect my mom doing something like that if she were old and in pain. I would fight her, and I would also respect her wishes in not wanting life support.
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Not sure where you got any of that, but it was a pretty good rant. Obviously, my suggestion to keep emotion out of the discussion fell on deaf ears.

Actually, I'm pro-choice in all things - as I said in my comments, I support people making choices for themselves and their own lives. While I'm pro-choice, that doesn't mean I agree with choices people make - some of them, in my view, are terrible choices, but they have the right to screw up their own lives. My support for assisted suicide reflects that. You're "blown away" by that, yet I'm "blown away" by the fact you say you don't support assisted suicide but you support a man arbitrarily ending the life of his unborn child before that child even has a chance to seek survival. So, in your world, it's bad to kill yourself, but okay to kill the defenceless and the weakest among us.

As for me being Canadian, that's another irrelevancy since this issue isn't one of nations. It's one of humanity. You can dismiss my views because I'm Canadian - that, again, is a choice you are entitled to - you're not entitled to decide what I will or won't have an opinion about. Again, that's my "pro-chioce" view - you choose for yourself, not for others.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Arcana XV said:
This is one of the creepiest things I've ever seen. A freaking zombie incubating a fetus that could be severely damaged already. Reality really is stranger than fiction... I sincerely hope for a miracle and that the baby will be okay. The odds are so not good, tho...
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Sounds like a sitcom "My Mother, The Corpse".

I cannot fathom how her wishes and the wishes of her husband can be overridden. Disgusting.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Yes, such bloodlust as you are displaying is disgusting.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

scatt said:
Religious beliefs are the same as political beliefs, you just think imposing your preferred (political) beliefs is more moral than a person imposing their preferred (religious) beliefs.
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Lol, not it isn't. ;) Not everyone has religious beliefs. Everyone has political beliefs. Now try arguing that not having religious beliefs is a religious belief. I love that nonsense.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
Simply monstrous.Again, it would be against the law for them to remove life support and kill the kid. They don't have to be pro-life to give a damn about the law, but it certainly helps.
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You play CON games. A 20 week old fetus is NOT a kid. You seem unwilling to admit what the law really is and substitute a distorted version to suit your purpose.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Superfly said:
This makes my head hurt. I can't wrap my head around how this can be legally allowed. To force a woman to carry full term is taking away her right to choose. But then she's dead, so she can't choose anyway.
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she's dead, so what difference does it make? it can't cause any more harm to her than has already occurred. give the kid a chance.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:
It is freaky. I know babies bond with and connect to the mother in the womb. They grow to recognize her voice.

I would think that a healthy cognitive and emotional development of the baby would need a living mother. It seems like this could create risk of learning disabilities and mental illnesses... :(
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I would be curious if that is even an issue. The baby that is born after the mother was deprived of oxygen for such a prolonged time - probably will not be plagued with mental illness. Severe neurological damage is more likely.

The whole thing is tragic. But above all else, her wishes should have been respected.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
she's dead, so what difference does it make? it can't cause any more harm to her than has already occurred. give the kid a chance.
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... to be born with horrible deformations. I don't understand how you can have a clear conscience with what is essentially a mad scientist experiment. Can this kid be born without a mutated head? Find out in 6 months!
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

notquiteright said:
You play CON games. A 20 week old fetus is NOT a kid. You seem unwilling to admit what the law really is and substitute a distorted version to suit your purpose.
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Like I told the other guy, keep your bigotry to yourself - I'm already using an age-neutral term. Not interested in playing BS semantic games.

I've also done the homework here and I have told you what the law says. No distortion, no games. I assume you don't like the law, but as someone who lives here, I don't much care.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Moderator's Warning:
Jabs at one another and veiled personal attacks end now.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

give the kid a chance

Baby Born To Brain-Dead Mother 3 Months After Woman's Declared Death
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Brain dead mom gives birth to twins while on life support
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Researchers from Heidelberg University in Germany scoured the medical literature for cases of pregnant women who were kept on life support after being declared brain-dead. They were able to find details on 19 such cases that were reported from 1982 to 2010.

Twelve of those fetuses were delivered by caesarean section and survived for some period of time after birth

There were also two cases involving fetuses that were 15 weeks old when their mothers died. One of the fetuses died in utero 49 days after its mother suffered catastrophic bleeding in the brain in Italy in 1992. The other remained in utero for 107 days – more than 15 weeks – after its mother suffered a traumatic brain injury in the U.S. in 1989. That baby boy was delivered by C-section at 32 weeks; he weighed 3.4 pounds, had Apgar scores of 6 and 9 (scores lower than 7 indicate a newborn needs medical attention, according to the National Institutes of Health), and was developing normally 11 months after his birth.
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Marlise Munoz: Can a fetus survive after mother becomes brain-dead? - latimes.com
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Hatuey said:
... to be born with horrible deformations. I don't understand how you can have a clear conscience with what is essentially a mad scientist experiment. Can this kid be born without a mutated head? Find out in 6 months!
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see post 316

and FWIW, we do have the technology to determine if the kid will be born with horrible deformations as the pregnancy progresses. If the tests show normal, let it ride. if not, then they can pull the plug.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
Like I told the other guy, keep your bigotry to yourself - I'm already using an age-neutral term. Not interested in playing BS semantic games. I've also done the homework here and I have told you what the law says. No distortion, no games. I assume you don't like the law, but as someone who lives here, I don't much care.
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I am not bigoted, blunt perhaps, I watch how some post, how they distort the law, you keep saying 'kid' as if the fetus is viable. It is still a fetus and by law can be terminated under many conditions and not be a murder. A gunman can't shoot a pregnant lady but the doctors can stop keeping a dead woman's body functioning if the next of kin agrees and the fetus is under the legal limit.

If nothing else it is abortion on demand and while Texas is doing it's utmost to strangle that law the doctor who pulls the plug on the dead mother has privileges at the hospital and the woman has a DNR.

I'd say the not liking a law is on the other foot, I'd say the law permits an abortion, so why not termination of heroic means to keep the mother alive and possibly her brain damaged fetus- who isn't viable.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
see post 316

and FWIW, we do have the technology to determine if the kid will be born with horrible deformations as the pregnancy progresses. If the tests show normal, let it ride. if not, then they can pull the plug.
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False- if the fetus is found to be horribly damaged but past the 24 week threshold the same folks arguing to not unplug the mother will argue it is against Texas law to abort a late term fetus. they are refusing to stop heroic means for the fetus while still legal to abort- you REALLY think they will agree to terminate the pregnancy after 24 weeks???
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
....

If this woman had been 8 months pregnant, would you say she and her unborn child should both be left to die?
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If she were 8 months pregnant ...the doctors could do a c section , then let woman die with dignity.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
So, explain to me how women who seek abortions before 24 weeks but object to that limit being reduced to 20 claim that between the 20 and 24 week period many physical and mental fetal abnormalities become evident? Are they lying?
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Brain function from loss of oxygen cannot be detected by an ultrasound.

Many babies who were deprived oxygen for more than a couple of minutes are born with cerebral paisley .
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Hatuey said:
... to be born with horrible deformations. I don't understand how you can have a clear conscience with what is essentially a mad scientist experiment. Can this kid be born without a mutated head? Find out in 6 months!
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Do you have kids?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
see post 316

and FWIW, we do have the technology to determine if the kid will be born with horrible deformations as the pregnancy progresses. If the tests show normal, let it ride. if not, then they can pull the plug.
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Yes, I saw post 316, the odds look ****ty. Giving "the baby" a chance is basically playing mad scientist with what is surely going to be a heart breaking situation for the father.
 
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