Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

AliHajiSheik said:

I think since Texas already permits abortion, then whether it is the mother making her own decision or the husband on her behalf, there is no difference. It is none of my business why the husband is making the decision, that is on him.

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Wait, so what's going on now, you want Mr. Munoz to authorize an abortion on his dead wife and you expect JPS to allow this?

If so, that's pretty ridiculous.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:

Given that he is on record saying that he wants the hospital to perform an action that will kill this kid... which is pretty yikes, by the way... if he doesn't recant from that awful position, it would probably be for the best if he wasn't in this kid's life.

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Why do you think the hospital is refusing to perform the abortion on this fetus?

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

TheNextEra said:

Well in that case, then the hospital should butt out since it is between Munoz and the insurer.

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By law, the hospital can't turn off life support and kill the living, healthy patient; father has to pay for those expenses for his kid.

The bill is between the hospital and Mr. Munoz. Paying it is between Mr. Munoz and his and the former Mrs. Munoz's insurance.

lizzie said:

I highly suspect he is making the decision, based on what his wife wanted, and had the foresight to put on paper.

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I just wanted to update you on this since we're on a new page:

1) There is no DNR. There was no such foresight to put these wishes onto paper. The people who claimed so earlier in this thread were in error. Some reporters out there apparently had misreported his statement of her wishes as though there was a DNR. It has been clarified. There is no DNR.

2) Even if there had been a DNR, that DNR would have stated on it that it would have no effect for the duration of a pregnancy and that DNR would have been explained to the patient, including that part.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rocket88 said:

So if there's no DNR, she should be kept alive forever? Or only until they're done using her as an incubator without her consent?

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Call me crazy, but since she wanted the baby while she was alive it should be the default assumption that she would want the baby to live even when she's dead.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

jmotivator said:

Call me crazy, but since she wanted the baby while she was alive it should be the default assumption that she would want the baby to live even when she's dead.

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That is, in fact, the default assumption.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

The written word lasts forever. How is this child going to feel when he grows up and reads all of this - how his father and grandparents wanted him dead.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:

Again, if I starve you or suffocate you, so will you. Go nature? Woo.

By your standard, hospitals ain't natural. Let all disease run its course, the strong will survive, or something like that. :roll:.

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I can only assume that Rocket88's new found love of natural processes means he now supports only natural termination of pregnancies through miscarriage or live birth.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Superfly said:

The written word lasts forever. How is this child going to feel when he grows up and reads all of this - how his father and grandparents wanted him dead.

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Truly awful, ain't it?

Well, there's always the possibility the dad will come to his senses.

If not, at least there's adoption.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:

That is, in fact, the default assumption.

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By all rational people, anyway.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:

Truly awful, ain't it?

Well, there's always the possibility the dad will come to his senses.

If not, at least there's adoption.

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At least for now, law trumps emotion. There is no directive, so Dad doesn't really have to come to his senses. The hospital did it for him.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

I am not atheist, so spare me. :lol:

The fact is, this women is hooked up on a life support system that she didn't want to be… and the husband will face the fact that she didn't want to be put on those machines, and he will have to pull the plug on her. And in terms of respecting life, this isn't an easy position. I personally and ethically hate abortion. I am personally pro life, and because of that, I would also have ethical issues with pulling the plug on another human being. I think it's wrong for the hospital to force this position on the husband and on her family.

You fail to see the other side of the issue. You're more concerned with the empathy of the unborn baby only. You don't respect this man's ethics or have any empathy with the fact that he, and only he, has the power to let his wife die now, and him and his wife didn't want to be in this situation. The hospital overrode their ethical position on end of life. That is wrong. Maybe this guy actually has an issue with ending her life now, and being solely, legally, and personally responsible for pulling the plug. I would. You apparently don't comprehend or understand that.

CanadaJohn said:

Having empathy for a grieving husband takes a back seat in my world to medical efforts that could possibly save another life. Once the husband is holding his new born child in his arms and sees his dead wife's eyes or nose in the child, then we can talk about empathy and understanding the facts at that moment.

Pope Francis is right about one thing - we've become a society that too readily views life as disposable. And before you get on your high horse and rail about religion, I'm not the slightest bit religious, so save it.

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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

reinoe said:

The mother and father. Which is now impossible.

Wow you really jumped onto all kinds of logical fallacies here.

Who's going to take care of the fetus is a legitimate question. Seeing as how you're conservative I'm sure you're against the state doing so and so am I.

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Like I said, why wouldn't the father look after the child, if he/she survives?

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Personally, there is a difference between abortion and this. I think this is some frakenstein **** to be honest. I am not comfortable with a dead women's body being kept alive on machines to gestate no more than I am comfortable with growing test tube babies. The natural order is that her unborn baby would die with her.

Now if she personally felt different, that would be different. If her and her husband wanted life support in this situation, that would be different… but he does not, and this is raising a lot of other ethical issues. I personally find the situation to be a little disturbing. And I also think that nothing is wrong with natural death. It's not traumatic, evil, or wrong. Doctors shouldn't go to extraordinary, degrading, or torturous methods of extending life or prolonging death, just for the sake of keeping somebody else alive.

I ethically am opposed to extraordinary life saving measures that would just cause a person to live in pain and being in long term suffering until succumbing to the inevitable. When my grandmother was in Hospice, dying from cancer, our main concern was that she did not suffer, but we could have requested drastic life saving measures and treatment to just extend and prolong life. So when people start using these arguments that life should be prolonged under drastic measures, I disagree. Practicing medicine require respect for the patient and a promise to not degrade them in death.

If you feel differently about suffering and prolonging life, then that choice should be yours and your families. It should not be made by the hospital and forced on you.

JayDubya said:

It's his kid's medical expenses, and the hospital is not legally allowed to do anything but what they are doing.

She's already dead, and turning off the ventilator needs to happen, yes... but in this case, that would also be a frivolous and needless loss of life for one of the two patients.

Take the mom out of the hospital now and you'd just be suffocating and / or starving a helpless kid.


P.S. I don't know to what extent this matters to the various people here, but apparently from local news affiliates (and yeah, this case is local for me), there was no DNR or any such document in place. Mr. Munoz is simply saying to hospital staff that he and Mrs. Munoz had talked about getting one.

This situation now makes a bit more sense. You don't have that document in place, the hospital doesn't know. If the hospital doesn't know, they're going to bloody well intubate a 33 year old pregnant woman and assume she wants her life and her baby's life saved if at all possible.

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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

With all due respect, this matter is about principles to you… to you, this is about nothing but supporting life, not about concern for the baby's health. Expectant parents have more reason to be concerned for that baby than you could possibly grasp, because it's not your unborn baby. If he has fear, it is a valid, reasonable and very real fear for him. He should be concerned for the health of the baby. If you were in this situation, and didn't care, inquire, and lacked concern for the baby's health, I would honestly be worried about you ability to grasp the severity of the issue.

JayDubya said:

"But the fetus still has a normal heartbeat.

Munoz told ABC News that he knows his desire to end his wife's life support is unpopular with many people

Family lawyers have said it will be difficult to convince a Texas judge to grant an injunction or restraining order to put the mother's wishes ahead of her child.

Munoz said that although he and his wife had intended to sign a do-not-resuscitate order, or DNR forms, they had not done so before she fell ill.

Texas law states this on pregnant patients: "A person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient."

And on DNR forms, under the Health and Safety Code, it reads, "I understand under Texas law this directive has no effect if I have been diagnosed as pregnant."

Husband Wants Pregnant Wife Off Life Support - ABC News

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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:

I am not atheist, so spare me. :lol:

The fact is, this women is hooked up on a life support system that she didn't want to be… and the husband will face the fact that she didn't want to be put on those machines, and he will have to pull the plug on her. And in terms of respecting life, this isn't an easy position. I personally and ethically hate abortion. I am personally pro life, and because of that, I would also have ethical issues with pulling the plug on another human being. I think it's wrong for the hospital to force this position on the husband and on her family.

You fail to see the other side of the issue. You're more concerned with the empathy of the unborn baby only. You don't respect this man's ethics or have any empathy with the fact that he, and only he, has the power to let his wife die now, and him and his wife didn't want to be in this situation. The hospital overrode their ethical position on end of life. That is wrong. Maybe this guy actually has an issue with ending her life now, and being solely, legally, and personally responsible for pulling the plug. I would. You apparently don't comprehend or understand that.

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The case, as we know it at this point, would indicate your comments are nonsense under the circumstances.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:

With all due respect, this matter is about principles to you… to you, this is about nothing but supporting life, not about concern for the baby's health. Expectant parents have more reason to be concerned for that baby than you could possibly grasp, because it's not your unborn baby. If he has fear, it is a valid, reasonable and very real fear for him. He should be concerned for the health of the baby. If you were in this situation, and didn't care, inquire, and lacked concern for the baby's health, I would honestly be worried about you ability to grasp the severity of the issue.

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What has demonstrated to you any concern the father might have for the kid's health? Was it the constant efforts to ensure the kid dies? How do those grab you?

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:

The case, as we know it at this point, would indicate your comments are nonsense under the circumstances.

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My comments are not nonsense… and I have told you before that I am not a liberal hack, which you constantly accuse me of being, just like you warned me to not Christian bash you. :lol:

I agreed with what the pope said, btw. I have said before, I respect life and I respect women. I am personally pro life, and I personally am opposed to life support and yanking the plug and killing somebody. This guy is going to have to end life support to his wife eventually, and you are totally and utterly incapable of having empathy or understanding for that.

If you're pro life, how could you feel comfortable pulling the plug on a family member when you could have opposed it? It seems you would refuse life support in the first place or you would never pull the plug. Never pulling the plug would go against her wishes. That should be respected. If the baby died along with her, that would be a natural death. If you and your wife want life support while pregnant and you want to be in charge of killing her after your baby arrives, then make that decision yourself.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:

What has demonstrated to you any concern the father might have for the kid's health? Was it the constant efforts to ensure the kid dies? How do those grab you?

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:lol:

I don't think he wants his baby to die. I think he wants to honor his promise to his wife. As I keep saying, somebody is going to eventually be responsible for pulling that plug. Some people don't want to be in that place or position, and are morally and ethically opposed to life support and pulling plugs.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

jmotivator said:

Call me crazy, but since she wanted the baby while she was alive it should be the default assumption that she would want the baby to live even when she's dead.

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Though maybe not in cases like this. I want to live, but if I won't recover I don't want to be kept alive. But wouldn't the default assumption be that I want to live?

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:

:lol:

I don't think he wants his baby to die. I think he wants to honor his promise to his wife. As I keep saying, somebody is going to eventually be responsible for pulling that plug. Some people don't want to be in that place or position, and are morally and ethically opposed to life support and pulling plugs.

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Well, and when the kid lives he'd obviously be stripped of his parental rights. Which is exactly how a small government doesn't intrude on people's lives.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rocket88 said:

Well, and when the kid lives he'd obviously be stripped of his parental rights. Which is exactly how a small government doesn't intrude on people's lives.

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How will he be stripped of parental rights?

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:

My comments are not nonsense… and I have told you before that I am not a liberal hack, which you constantly accuse me of being, just like you warned me to not Christian bash you. :lol:

I agreed with what the pope said, btw. I have said before, I respect life and I respect women. I am personally pro life, and I personally am opposed to life support and yanking the plug and killing somebody. This guy is going to have to end life support to his wife eventually, and you are totally and utterly incapable of having empathy or understanding for that.

If you're pro life, how could you feel comfortable pulling the plug on a family member when you could have opposed it? It seems you would refuse life support in the first place or you would never pull the plug. Never pulling the plug would go against her wishes. That should be respected. If the baby died along with her, that would be a natural death. If you and your wife want life support while pregnant and you want to be in charge of killing her after your baby arrives, then make that decision yourself.

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Sorry, that wasn't my point. I was simply referring to the facts, as JayDubya pointed out, that there was no written directive/order from the wife/mother in place, simply the "say so" of the husband and secondly, according to Texas law, even if there was a written directive, it has no force in law if there's a pregnancy involved. So what the husband is feeling or wants at the time is simply irrelevant emotion, likely driven by grief, but the law requires that the developing child be saved, if possible.

You can repeat as much as you want what you presume to be "her wishes", but there's nothing to verify what the husband is saying. And based on the fact that both the wife and husband were/are EMS professionals, knowing hospital procedures, if it was something they felt strongly about they would have it in writing.

We can argue, the pros and cons of the state law, but emotions, religion, wishes, etc. are all irrelevant nonsense at this point.

For what it's worth, I'm a strong proponent of such "end of life" directives and I also strongly support "assisted suicide" or whatever name they give it these days. But these are all issues related to an individual choosing their own path - those decisions should not impose a death sentence on another human being even if that other human being is only in the early stages of development.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Why don't we just have Silvia Browne ask the woman's soul what she wants to do?

And then, in the future, we can use micro-robotics to send a tiny iPad into the womb so the fetus can communicate its wishes in case of something like this happening. Then it can decide whether or not it would want to spend 22 weeks gestating inside of a dead woman so that it can be born severely disabled. These absurd proposals are solutions to equally absurd questions, however rhetorical, found all over this thread.

I remember the Terri Schiavo case and I hope everybody else does too. We had Republicans around the country saying "just wait for the autopsy, it will prove that she was still a person with a functioning brain who was capable of communicating!" The truth was much more depressing. This child will suffer his or her entire life from a terrible disability. The state has no right to force a person to bring such a child into this world under these circumstances. There should certainly be a lawsuit that seeks to give spouses the right to abort a child in cases like this, at least if the pregnancy is early enough (I would say anything under 28 weeks).

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rocket88 said:

Though maybe not in cases like this. I want to live, but if I won't recover I don't want to be kept alive. But wouldn't the default assumption be that I want to live?

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Faulty comparison. The more accurate comparison would be "Do I want my child to die if I die?". The default assumption would be that a parent wants their child to continue living after they die.

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

It makes perfect sense to keep a brain dead woman alive to save the life of the child. Why have 2 people die instead of just one?