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Thread: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

  1. #761
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    And at what point does this 'acceptance' end?

    1 week after conception?

    5 weeks after conception?

    At what point does a husband - or the woman herself - lose the right to make these end of life decisions?

    Pregnancy does not end your rights.

    - They made all of these decisions without consent or consult when she was 14 weeks into the pregnancy. It was knee jerk. IF this happened when she was far enough along for the baby to live outside the womb then I would have supported Cesarean and picu.
    I don't presume to know - that's why I say I leave the viability of this developing life to the medical community in the hospital.

    I do know I wouldn't leave it to emotional irrationality like asking if I'd do the same if she was "1 week" or "5 weeks" pregnant - that's as irrational as me asking you why you support abortion at 8 months.

    I also know that since Roe v Wade, medical science has increased the odds of viability for a fetus outside the womb, narrowing the window in many peoples' minds about when an abortion is strictly a woman's choice. Many doctors who support abortion rights believe that after a shorter period of time there must be a medical reason to abort, not just a choice. It's why abortion as an issue is actively under discussion in the US.

    While this is not an abortion issue, it is an issue of "human rights" and what should or could be done to save the life of the weakest among us. When there are two competing interests, one should always err on the side of least harm. In this case, there is no personal harm to the woman who as all have agreed is dead - the only personal harm from choice is to the fetus.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  2. #762
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Update:

    Fetus of Texas woman on life support 'distinctly abnormal,' family lawyers say - U.S. News

    While I am forever erring on the side of saving the baby, this doesn't sound good. If it's true, and the baby does have such severe abnormalities, it won't survive to term, anyway, and this entire argument will be moot.

  3. #763
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I don't presume to know - that's why I say I leave the viability of this developing life to the medical community in the hospital.

    I do know I wouldn't leave it to emotional irrationality like asking if I'd do the same if she was "1 week" or "5 weeks" pregnant - that's as irrational as me asking you why you support abortion at 8 months.

    I also know that since Roe v Wade, medical science has increased the odds of viability for a fetus outside the womb, narrowing the window in many peoples' minds about when an abortion is strictly a woman's choice. Many doctors who support abortion rights believe that after a shorter period of time there must be a medical reason to abort, not just a choice. It's why abortion as an issue is actively under discussion in the US.

    While this is not an abortion issue, it is an issue of "human rights" and what should or could be done to save the life of the weakest among us. When there are two competing interests, one should always err on the side of least harm. In this case, there is no personal harm to the woman who as all have agreed is dead - the only personal harm from choice is to the fetus.
    Wrong. Since the (potential) mother died from lack of oxygen in her blood then the odds that the fetus is developing normally are slim. While medical miracles may be able to deliver (likely prematurely) the fetus as a baby that may be only the beginning of a lifetime of constant care being required for a severely disabled person. Do you expect the state to raise and care for this (potential) child or for that burden to fall upon those not allowed any say in this decision?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #764
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    Update:

    Fetus of Texas woman on life support 'distinctly abnormal,' family lawyers say - U.S. News

    While I am forever erring on the side of saving the baby, this doesn't sound good. If it's true, and the baby does have such severe abnormalities, it won't survive to term, anyway, and this entire argument will be moot.
    That is very sad but not surprising.

    I continue to hope Texas does the right thing by the family.

  5. #765
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    Update:

    Fetus of Texas woman on life support 'distinctly abnormal,' family lawyers say - U.S. News

    While I am forever erring on the side of saving the baby, this doesn't sound good. If it's true, and the baby does have such severe abnormalities, it won't survive to term, anyway, and this entire argument will be moot.
    They finally did some tests. When the story broke they just kept saying we have no idea about the fetus.

  6. #766
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I'll turn your own question back on you - at 8 months pregnant, 7 months, 6 months, when do you just let the mother and her unborn child both die because the husband/father mother/grandmother want to get on with grieving? You're the one sitting in judgement and passing a death sentence on a developing human life, so you tell us your criteria for deeming a life worth saving.
    That's easy. The criteria for when the affected individual cannot make their own choice is the criteria for the legal next of kin. End of story. We don't have that right to impose our values upon that. Oh we do indeed force it usually by writ of law, but it really isn't our right.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I think it is wrong because the acting legal consent is with the husband and the hospital is not acting in accordance with that. If the woman had a living will saying otherwise, I would completely support that but as she does not the legal consent should pass to the husband.

    My wife and I have living wills exactly for this type of situation should it occur.
    Do you have a pregnancy clause that states what you want in that unusual situation?
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  7. #767
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    Update:

    Fetus of Texas woman on life support 'distinctly abnormal,' family lawyers say - U.S. News

    While I am forever erring on the side of saving the baby, this doesn't sound good. If it's true, and the baby does have such severe abnormalities, it won't survive to term, anyway, and this entire argument will be moot.
    We'll see, I guess.

    The doctors in the case aren't going to be legally allowed to address the matter publically unless the family signed off on it; seems unlikely, and even if the family did that, the hospital attorney might not want them to. I assume the hospital attorney is going to simply stick to the earlier statement and not get engaged in any way in the public debate, just say the law is what it is and not engage in any moralizing or speculation - this way, either way this plays out in court, they won't be seen as the bad guys.

    The family's lawyers can be assumed to, in a public statement, be promoting their client's case and that includes "massaging" the truth like upgrading speculative information to facts or grand exaggerations.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 01-23-14 at 09:21 AM.

  8. #768
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Not to rain on your parade, but my best source says it's 37 states, as of 2012. You may be using an older, or, more recent source.

    The 12-state number comes from those states which completely ban removal of life-support from pregnant patients; TX being one of them. The remaining 25 states have varying stipulations. While TX and other states completely invalidate the directive throughout the entire pregnancy, other states only invalidate the directive if the fetus is already viable. Additionally, Georgia, for example, requires both validity and the directive's specific direction to remove life-support if the fetus is not viable. Absent that specific declaration, Georgia will not remove life-support even if the fetus is not viable. Hawaii has yet different angle, in that the state allows the individual doctor to ignore an advanced directive to remove life-support from a pregnant patient.
    And living wills pertain to the living individual that the document relates to.

    This is not a PVS or comatose patient that is living.

    This person (according to reports of documents being given to court demonstrating declaration of death)is dead.

    I am sick that it is taking this long for the courts to weigh in.

    To me, it all hinges on whether the woman has really been declared dead. If so....the LIVING WILL has no bearing.

  9. #769
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    If so....the LIVING WILL has no bearing.
    There is no living will.

  10. #770
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    There is no living will.
    I've lost count of how many times that's been pointed out.

    At this point, I think the goal of establishing the facts of the case was hopelessly lofty.

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