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Thread: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

  1. #591
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    I have had my mother with me for about 15 years. I have respected her wishes and cared for her as best I can. So I understand the concept. Completely.

    But what about this woman's husband. He wants to abide by his wife's wishes. They were both paramedics - so I am sure they were acutely aware of quality of life issues and had made personal judgments about quality of life. Who are we to push our individual points of view on that family? People decide all the time on infants, children, adults, and the elderly to withhold medical care - why is it so cringingly horrible to allow a woman who suffered catastrophic cardiovascular collapse including lack of ox.ygen to pass along with the 14 week old fetus (who was without O2 as well). I just think this is a decision that should have been left to the next of kin.
    I appreciate what you're saying, however, for me, husbands and wives don't get to take their children with them when they die. As someone who is pro-choice, I appreciate when a woman makes a decision about her pregnancy even if, personally, I hate the decision. Many here, including yourself, believe that their is only one life at issue here, that being the woman. I, on the other hand, with others here, believe that there is also only one life at issue here, that being the developing fetus.

    You talk about the husband wanting to abide by the wife's wishes - I'll credit he believes that to be true, but I don't personally believe that any woman who is pregnant and intent on giving birth would freely give a direction that should she die her unborn child should be taken with her. I've seen what women do to protect the lives of their children, some giving their own life to save their child. I think it's an insult to the memory of this woman that her husband believes she wouldn't want everything done to save her child.

    And you're right - the husband and wife were both paramedics. As such, nothing would convince me that they wouldn't know the absolute need of having their wishes in writing in order for them to be valid. Perhaps it's just a matter of the invincibility of youth that nothing formal was put in writing, but there wasn't.

    As for leaving the decision to next of kin, I would tend to agree - where we disagree here is what is in the best interest of the developing life. It's not unheard of that government would step in to protect the interests of the vulnerable when the guardians of those interests are acting in their own interests rather than that of the patient.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  2. #592
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    Scat!

    She is dead. You do not need a DNR order for a dead person. She is not being resuscitated. You do not resuscitate a corpse.

    What do you not "get" about "dead"?
    Perhaps what many aren't getting is that there is only one "being" on life support, and that is the developing fetus. The "corpse" as you call it is simply a conduit for implementing life support to the benefit of the fetus. The "mother's" wishes aren't being denied, in that sense, since she is dead. What are being denied are the personal, emotional, wishes of the husband and woman's mother, which have no status in law, period.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I appreciate what you're saying, however, for me, husbands and wives don't get to take their children with them when they die. As someone who is pro-choice, I appreciate when a woman makes a decision about her pregnancy even if, personally, I hate the decision. Many here, including yourself, believe that their is only one life at issue here, that being the woman. I, on the other hand, with others here, believe that there is also only one life at issue here, that being the developing fetus.

    You talk about the husband wanting to abide by the wife's wishes - I'll credit he believes that to be true, but I don't personally believe that any woman who is pregnant and intent on giving birth would freely give a direction that should she die her unborn child should be taken with her. I've seen what women do to protect the lives of their children, some giving their own life to save their child. I think it's an insult to the memory of this woman that her husband believes she wouldn't want everything done to save her child.

    And you're right - the husband and wife were both paramedics. As such, nothing would convince me that they wouldn't know the absolute need of having their wishes in writing in order for them to be valid. Perhaps it's just a matter of the invincibility of youth that nothing formal was put in writing, but there wasn't.

    As for leaving the decision to next of kin, I would tend to agree - where we disagree here is what is in the best interest of the developing life. It's not unheard of that government would step in to protect the interests of the vulnerable when the guardians of those interests are acting in their own interests rather than that of the patient.
    So where do you draw the line. What if she was 3 weeks pregnant?

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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Perhaps what many aren't getting is that there is only one "being" on life support, and that is the developing fetus. The "corpse" as you call it is simply a conduit for implementing life support to the benefit of the fetus. The "mother's" wishes aren't being denied, in that sense, since she is dead. What are being denied are the personal, emotional, wishes of the husband and woman's mother, which have no status in law, period.
    So, are you telling me they have the patient listed as the baby?

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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    No they are not. She is not alive. Are you saying brain dead people are alive?
    Exactly.

    It seems like many posters on this thread think the ventalator can keep a dead body from decaying because the heart is beating and oxygen is being pumped in with the ventalator.

    What they fail to understand is she is brain dead because her brain had no oxygen and no blood flow for an extended period of time.

    The brain is dead and decay is setting in. Just like what happens when when a limb does get blood flow for a period of time and gangrene sets in and the limb starts to rot.

    Sorry for being so blunt but it seems many of the posters on this thread who support keeping her on the ventalitor just don't understand she is dead... not in a coma, not in a vegetive state where machines can keep a persons body maintained for an extended period of time.
    Last edited by minnie616; 01-20-14 at 10:17 PM.
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post

    What they fail to understand is she is brain dead because her brain had no oxygen and no blood flow for an extended period of time.

    The brain is dead and decay is setting in. Just like what happens when when a limb does get blood flow for a period of time and gangrene sets in and the limb starts to rot.

    .
    No, that really is not the case. A body which is artificially ventilated still has circulation, as the heart is still beating. The only reason why there would be rot or decay would be that the people taking care of the individual in question, neglected to turn the person regularly, to take the pressure off the different pressure points on the body. In that case, a pressure ulcer would develop, but it could be healed by regular turning/repositioning and wound care.
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    well im playing catch up and im going to state what i think the facts are please correct me if wrong

    woman is brain dead
    woman is 20 weeks pregnant (incident happened at 14 weeks)
    woman had order to not be on life support
    woman is married making her husband legally and medically in control
    Texas law prohibits it from following a family/will directive when a pregnancy is involved.
    Father also wants to abort because of possible damage to the Fetus

    as i could tell, seems those are the facts, please correct me if im wrong


    if the above is true the Texas state law violates rights in my simply opinion because it disregards the woman's rights and RvW and puts an extra restriction that is above and beyond RvW.

    the womans will/order/wishes should be done AND since the father is alive and married so should his

    Now since the unconstitutional law exists it does have to be challenged so thats that. there has to be a court case.

    What should happen to this law is what has happened to many other laws, since it goes against RvW it should be removed and struck down, since it violates will/individual rights it should also be struck down.

    Keeping a woman alive 10 weeks or longer against her wishes, husbands wishes and family wishes is horrible and then during medical procedures on her body afterwards is also horrible.

    Having said all that, again though, the law is on the books and currently the hospital is within their legal right. Im glad this is going to court and the law should be struck down.
    well i haven read every post but nothing has changed about what i wrote above but now i have a new question that is a side topic.

    uhm, who is paying for all this?
    how expensive is it to keep somebody on life support for multiple months especially if they are legally dead, does insurance pay?
    who is responsible?
    and in the texas law that is unconstitutional is there a limit? like what if this would have happened and she was only 3 weeks? would the law still try to keep her supported for 21+ weeks?
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    No, that really is not the case. A body which is artificially ventilated still has circulation, as the heart is still beating. The only reason why there would be rot or decay would be that the people taking care of the individual in question, neglected to turn the person regularly, to take the pressure off the different pressure points on the body. In that case, a pressure ulcer would develop, but it could be healed by regular turning/repositioning and wound care.
    My understanding is the brain did not receive oxygen for an extended period of time.
    I was stating her brain is decaying inside not that her body is rotting.

    I agree pressure ulcers could still develop but I was referring to her brain decaying.

    Sorry , I did not make that more clear.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    since protocol seems to very so much seems it can be anywhere from $3,500 to 11,000 a day. ANd thats not anything else just ICU life support.

    so this could cost 245K-770K and up.
    Who pays that?
    Who responsibility is that?

    Woman is legally dead
    this is against the husband/fathers and families wishes
    insurance could be a typical insurance company and claim the woman is legally dead and or the ZEF isnt covered

    seems to me if its a state law they should cover it
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    Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    No, that really is not the case. A body which is artificially ventilated still has circulation, as the heart is still beating. The only reason why there would be rot or decay would be that the people taking care of the individual in question, neglected to turn the person regularly, to take the pressure off the different pressure points on the body. In that case, a pressure ulcer would develop, but it could be healed by regular turning/repositioning and wound care.
    Nope. Her airway can't be cleared by itself, she will start digesting her own digestive system and her muscles will decay due to neurological death. Regardless of any proper nursing, she will decompose.

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