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Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support[W:315]

Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
Pish-posh. Why let science or reason get in the way of a perfectly good hysterical rant?
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One of the silliest movies I ever didnt bother finishing was "Dumb and Dumber."

Apparently you dont bother to read (not that I'm surprised)....it's just easier to jump on the hysteria train and *continue to be 100% wrong.*

Well done.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Lursa said:
One of the silliest movies I ever didnt bother finishing was "Dumb and Dumber."

Apparently you dont bother to read (not that I'm surprised)....it's just easier to jump on the hysteria train and *continue to be 100% wrong.*

Well done.
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to be fair, the way your comment was worded, it wasn't clear.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
I just don't get it. As a father, I would want to give my unborn child every opportunity to survive.
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If you are just joining the thread, a major consideration for the family is that the fetus has been deprived of O2 and the extent or existence of damage to the fetus is unknown.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Lursa said:
If you are just joining the thread, a major consideration for the family is that the fetus has been deprived of O2 and the extent or existence of damage to the fetus is unknown.
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that is correct, it is UNKNOWN, so why the rush to pull the plug?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
that is correct, it is UNKNOWN, so why the rush to pull the plug?
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Rush?

She has been on the ventalitor for almost 2 months against her wishes, her husbands wishes, and her parents wishes.

Her family wants to be able to give her and fetus peace and hold a memorial service for them.

It must be pure agony knowing she is dead and seeing hooked to machines every day ...and this may very well go on another 3 to 4 months if the hospital and state of Texas gets their way.

All for a possibly that the fetus might survive, be born and actually survive more than a few hours or days.

The odds are highly against that.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
I just don't get it. As a father, I would want to give my unborn child every opportunity to survive.
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But those of us who haven't been in this husband's position shouldn't judge. He's in deep grief and may not be thinking clearly. He may have been told by physicians with whom he has worked that the baby is damaged, and he surely respects their opinions.

I've read that Mr. Munoz has "told" his wife that their son is growing and is fine, and I am so sorry that he appears to have given up on his unborn baby. The reason I reposted the link to the LA Times article is because the study it discusses is incomplete--some of the surviving babies have "disappeared." There is no way to know for sure if something is wrong, no way to offer reliable "odds."

Where there is life, there is always hope, and this unborn baby is alive and has a normal heartbeat. This is why the hospital is confident it's following state law: There is still a live patient.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

minnie616 said:
Rush?

She has been on the ventalitor for almost 2 months against her wishes, her husbands wishes, and her parents wishes.

Her family wants to be able to give her and fetus peace and hold a memorial service for them.

It must be pure agony knowing she is dead and seeing hooked to machines every day ...and this may very well go on another 3 to 4 months if the hospital and state of Texas gets their way.

All for a possibly that the fetus might survive, be born and actually survive more than a few hours or days.

The odds are highly against that.
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Even if I had faith in your ability to make such a determination - and I assuredly do not - to hell with your "odds."

We know the mom is dead... we have no such information about the kid.

The kid's gonna have a chance.

If the kid dies you can have your celebratory "I told you so" and take cold comfort in your pessimism being warranted.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rjay said:
She really isn't on life support, is she? She is dead.
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She is on life support. What else would you call it?

rjay said:
This experiment is keeping her organs and the rest of her body from decaying, as would normally happen to a dead person. This experiment is keeping her loved ones from grieving and trying to get on with their lives.
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What experiment are you talking about. No one is experimenting with anything here. Healthy babies have been delivered after the mother was declared brain-dead and kept on life support before. This isn't something where they're just saying "eh, no one has ever done this before, let's try it and see what happens".

Baby Born To Brain-Dead Mother 3 Months After Woman's Declared Death
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

When you're making an appeal to the Texas state law, then it's fair to dismiss your views because you are from Canada. Appealing to authority in a foreign laws in a state is pretty funny.

Also, you don't comprehend that I see your point. I see both sides. The women was hooked up on life support, turning it off will kill the baby. I don't like that. But I also realize that the life support system needs to be turned off, per her wish. You think once the baby is born, everything is going to change, and it suddenly won't matter to the father and husband that his wife was degraded and stripped of making her end of life decisions, and now he will have to end her existence.

That isn't going to change. My argument is she should have never been hooked up to machines to begin with.




CanadaJohn said:
Not sure where you got any of that, but it was a pretty good rant. Obviously, my suggestion to keep emotion out of the discussion fell on deaf ears.

Actually, I'm pro-choice in all things - as I said in my comments, I support people making choices for themselves and their own lives. While I'm pro-choice, that doesn't mean I agree with choices people make - some of them, in my view, are terrible choices, but they have the right to screw up their own lives. My support for assisted suicide reflects that. You're "blown away" by that, yet I'm "blown away" by the fact you say you don't support assisted suicide but you support a man arbitrarily ending the life of his unborn child before that child even has a chance to seek survival. So, in your world, it's bad to kill yourself, but okay to kill the defenceless and the weakest among us.

As for me being Canadian, that's another irrelevancy since this issue isn't one of nations. It's one of humanity. You can dismiss my views because I'm Canadian - that, again, is a choice you are entitled to - you're not entitled to decide what I will or won't have an opinion about. Again, that's my "pro-chioce" view - you choose for yourself, not for others.
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

This is about saving an unborn baby at all costs, and totally ignoring the female in the process… Putting women through hell and pushing us to the brink of death, and even killing us to possibly save an unborn life is pretty awful, but this has far surpassed that point. This woman is literally dead, and the majority of lifers here think her body should be hooked up to machines to finish the gestative process despite her end of life wishes. She is dead, she has no feelings, so they see nothing degrading about this.

BS they don't see unborn life above that of women's lives.


rjay said:
She really isn't on life support, is she? She is dead. This experiment is keeping her organs and the rest of her body from decaying, as would normally happen to a dead person. This experiment is keeping her loved ones from grieving and trying to get on with their lives. This has got to be the most intrusive and invasive a government can get into the lives of it's citizens.

This medical experiment of using a corpse as an incubator is about as gruesome as it gets. Have they lab tested this with other dead mammals? I am sure the answer to that question is no. Who would fund such a rupugnent experiment? What type of person would even come up with the idea.

Have we as a society lost all sense of human dignity?
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

Superfly said:
Wonder why everyone seems to be having such a problem with this? You can say it a million times, and it still seems to not stick. :shrug:
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Because it's a moot point. It doesn't matter. Texas state law would supersede it even if it existed. In most other cases, a verbal contract is enough. Her family and husband are all on the same side, so this isn't even comparable to the Teri Shivo case.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

"We want to let them rest." and "Let them be in peace."

That reminds me of my mom and the things she has said working in the ER, and the things she has done and seen done to save lives at all costs. One doctor works with her and boasts that nobody dies on his watch, and it's true…. because he puts their bodies through hell he will break people's ribs with daily rounds of CPR, restart their hearts multiple times with defibrillators, put them on machines, vent them twenty times before he leaves for the day, etc.

My mom found his work to be disgusting, degrading, and even torturous to the patients, so she gave the same patients comfort and if they died on her shift, she gave the peace and respected God's plan.

minnie616 said:
I agree.

The family wants to be able to say good bye and to let them rest in peace.

from this article:


Texas denies pregnant woman's grieving family the right to say goodbye | Dallas Morning News
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
Okay, let's say - just for the sake of argument - that we all knew for a fact that the kid now has cerebral palsy.

So what? Cerebral palsy isn't a death sentence.
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I wouldn't call it's birth a miracle anymore than a test tube growing a baby. I honestly think it is sick that people see nothing wrong with hooking up dead, pregnant women to machines so they can finish producing children. Technology makes it possible, but it just doesn't seem right to me.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
die with dignity. what a ****ing joke. I have seen more than my fair share of death and I can tell you that there is no such thing as dying with dignity. you simply die.....
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So you don't care to be hooked up to a life support system to prevent your dead body decaying and left to crap on yourself until maggots eat you away?
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
so where's the problem? if the fetus is going to miscarry in a couple of weeks anyway, why rush it?
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If the women were miscarrying, then they would you support hooking her up to machines? You have to be trolling.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

btw… I like how you quoted the pope on how he critisized a culture of death, and then went on to say you aren't really pro life and you don't value life in all situations. Why quote the pope then? Cause it sounded good? You don't promote a true culture of life yourself.

CanadaJohn said:
Not sure where you got any of that, but it was a pretty good rant. Obviously, my suggestion to keep emotion out of the discussion fell on deaf ears.

Actually, I'm pro-choice in all things - as I said in my comments, I support people making choices for themselves and their own lives. While I'm pro-choice, that doesn't mean I agree with choices people make - some of them, in my view, are terrible choices, but they have the right to screw up their own lives. My support for assisted suicide reflects that. You're "blown away" by that, yet I'm "blown away" by the fact you say you don't support assisted suicide but you support a man arbitrarily ending the life of his unborn child before that child even has a chance to seek survival. So, in your world, it's bad to kill yourself, but okay to kill the defenceless and the weakest among us.

As for me being Canadian, that's another irrelevancy since this issue isn't one of nations. It's one of humanity. You can dismiss my views because I'm Canadian - that, again, is a choice you are entitled to - you're not entitled to decide what I will or won't have an opinion about. Again, that's my "pro-chioce" view - you choose for yourself, not for others.
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Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

CanadaJohn said:
Would she have to be on life support while being prepped, waiting, and during the operation?

If so, wouldn't that be against her supposed wishes? Do supposed wishes have a grace period where they can be ignored and after that enforced?
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Most hospitals allow brain dead patients to remain on life support for a short period of time as an "adjustment period"

And for the record, a crash C-section can happen within minutes.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

JayDubya said:
Yes, there are bad things that can happen to a kid. I sure hope none of them happen to the kid. We don't know if any of them have.

All we know that the kid has a normal heartbeat and that no miscarriage has occurred, as it often does when things go egregiously wrong with growth and development.
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I like the fact that you are willing to take the risk. You are quite willing to pass the expense of the life support onto this grieving family. As if that was not bad enough, you have a solution. You have determined that this family, who lost a mother, lost her income, and are racked with grief over this loss, - should be saddled with the cost of keeping oxygen pumping through her dead body and should be saddled with the cost of raising a child with any number of life-long expenses. Why? Well for one, you get to keep your personal morals intatct and it costs you nothing.

When this family goes on welfare, because the Father cannot afford to work and pay for the care required, you will line up and point out that here we have another welfare bum, living off my hard earned taxes.

I wish people would use intellect and look at situations on a case ny case basis. What we have here is people who long ago decided what their position would be. People who refuse to use logic or intellect in deciding situations on a case by case basis. No, no - we don't need to know the facts, we don't need to know the situations of our fellow human beings.

All we need to know is that we decided long ago and that there is no possible situation in which my preconcieved notions can be challenged.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

digsbe said:
It makes perfect sense to keep a brain dead woman alive to save the life of the child. Why have 2 people die instead of just one?
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I agree. WTF does God know about death. We are human - we are supreme - we know, even if nature does not.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

OscarB63 said:
my bad. however, once the mother is removed from life support, the fetus would die rather quickly from oxygen deprivation.
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Gosh, that sounds horrible, almost natural. Surely we can intervene and pump oxygen into the lifeless mother. That way her son can come and see her dead body being kept fresh, through the miracle of science, for the next number of months.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:
Because it's a moot point. It doesn't matter. Texas state law would supersede it even if it existed. In most other cases, a verbal contract is enough. Her family and husband are all on the same side, so this isn't even comparable to the Teri Shivo case.
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A verbal contract is not enough to justify taking a life. And if you'll look back, I, too, said that this was nothing like the Teri Schaivo case. Nothing.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:
I wouldn't call it's birth a miracle anymore than a test tube growing a baby. I honestly think it is sick that people see nothing wrong with hooking up dead, pregnant women to machines so they can finish producing children. Technology makes it possible, but it just doesn't seem right to me.
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It's funny how you quote me saying "cerebral palsy isn't a death sentence" to say that you think I'm sick for not wanting the kid to just die.

Well, I'll say it again, any of these possible disorders mentioned thus far by people that just want the kid dead, what you are all really telling us is that you think anyone with any of these disorders is better off dead and should have been killed.

THAT is sick.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

rjay said:
I like the fact that you are willing to take the risk.
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Every kid is risk. Every day of every life is risk.

You are quite willing to pass the expense of the life support onto this grieving family.
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I'm not passing anything - this is care for his kid. I'd ask who you think should pay for it, but I find that I just don't care what other illogical proposal you might have.

should be saddled with the cost of raising a child with any number of life-long expenses
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Or none of the above. You have no evidence of any such thing and on the basis of your speculation you want the kid to die.

I wish people would use intellect and look at situations on a case by case basis.
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I have. In this case, there is no logical reason to stop life support whereas typically you would stop it as soon as brain death occurs. Case by case, this is the most rational and most ethical thing to do.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:
BS they don't see unborn life above that of women's lives.
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Yes, you accurately preceded your sentiment with an accurate descriptor - BS. That statement was right out of a bull's backquarters.

Triage. You save the patient you can save. There is no above or below, all are created equal.

One patient is dead and there ain't nothing to be done for her. Sad, but true. Her kid is not - we can and we are saving his or her life.
 
Re: Texas Hospital keeping pregnant dead lady on life support

SheWolf said:
btw… I like how you quoted the pope on how he critisized a culture of death, and then went on to say you aren't really pro life and you don't value life in all situations. Why quote the pope then? Cause it sounded good? You don't promote a true culture of life yourself.
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I quoted the Pope because he made a good point and made sense - I quote you here, because you don't.
 
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