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US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

I don't think the state should be involved in marriage contracts, so I see no state interest in having any marriage laws.

Really? Marriage is a pretty common practice and the amount of paperwork and lawyer fees required are pretty substantial in order to recreate the protections a spouse has.
 
Really? Marriage is a pretty common practice and the amount of paperwork and lawyer fees required are pretty substantial in order to recreate the protections a spouse has.

Why does something being expensive mean the government has to do it?
 
1.) caring about the law is what these ruling are based on so your post fails there
2.) failed strawman and your claim is the only boldface lie

rights and the constitution were both protected, your opinion is meaningless

and sexual preference is not covered or addressed in the constitution so again your argument is fantasy and has nothing to do with reality
 
Hopefully such an intrusion of rights will be repealed and reversed. Turning voters that have issues with changing the definition of marriage into second class citizens in lieu of social changes and progressives/liberals wanting to declare perversion as a protected right worthy enough to completely redefine the English language is not something that should happen. When in doubt, when politics don't go your way just file with the courts and hope some activist judges will give your opinion on a political/social issue legal protection :shrug: everyone does it.

If this insanity is upheld I sincerely hope that there is a revolt and maybe even a split of the union. For far too long the rights of people have been eroded by this progressive philosophy of anit-religion and anti-voter's rights/sate's when issues are not popular among secular liberals/progressives. Such a sweeping change of hundreds of years of marital practice should not happen due to perversion becoming more socially acceptable, especially not without a Constitutional Amendment that removes the rights of states to define marriage.

Completely out of your mind to think that violence is acceptable response to human rights. Russia is ---->....Never mind, you won't be happy there either. Uganda is ------>
 
10th Amendment. Marriage is a right, but it's not a specifically enumerated right, so according to the 10th Amendment regulating the right of marriage falls to the states.

Except when the states violate 14th amendment

It's funny to see you and others squirm your way into "as supporter of gay rights including marriage" in other threads. You clearly are not
 
Why does something being expensive mean the government has to do it?

It doesn't HAVE to do it...it's just must more efficient than everybody going out and getting lawyers to compile a list of documents giving someone that same rights a marriage license does. It's the reason why most people are happy with the government issuing them.
 
Hopefully such an intrusion of rights will be repealed and reversed. Turning voters that have issues with changing the definition of marriage into second class citizens in lieu of social changes and progressives/liberals wanting to declare perversion as a protected right worthy enough to completely redefine the English language is not something that should happen. When in doubt, when politics don't go your way just file with the courts and hope some activist judges will give your opinion on a political/social issue legal protection :shrug: everyone does it.

If this insanity is upheld I sincerely hope that there is a revolt and maybe even a split of the union. For far too long the rights of people have been eroded by this progressive philosophy of anit-religion and anti-voter's rights/sate's when issues are not popular among secular liberals/progressives. Such a sweeping change of hundreds of years of marital practice should not happen due to perversion becoming more socially acceptable, especially not without a Constitutional Amendment that removes the rights of states to define marriage.

EXCEPT that this isn't changing anyone INTO a second class citizen but freeing a few folks from being second class citizens. Kinda opposite day on that.

Be careful what you wish for when it comes to violence, or better yet have you a most excellent hidie hole because revolt isn't neat and tidy and many 'just' folks end up buzzard bait in the streets. Not sure how the Union will divide on this, this isn't as much a regional thing as your neighbor thing.

The biggest problem with the 'Right for States to define marriage' is that right isn't without limits. Can a state define marriage as only within one's race? This doesn't redefine anything, it EXPANDS a definition.

Where the State's Rights crowd miss the mark on this, and a few other issues, is the deciding which consenting adults are allowed to do something, but not others of equal legal status (ie not felons with handguns or untrained 'doctors' practicing medicine) is not a State Right. The Constitution is quite clear on equal rights- some would say traditionally a woman isn't granted 'equal rights' as she was made second, made to be a 'helper', made subservient. So quoting 'what was' doesn't so it ever shall be, even while singing it in a hymn.

There need be no Constitutional Amendment on this. That is a forlorn hope stall tactic.

Does a ban on same sex marriage pass Constitutional muster?

You see Oklahoma didn't define marriage or even restrict it to man/woman, we BANNED same sex marriage. Stupid tactic by hyper partisan religious Conservatives.

It is a foolish lament to decry the 'the will of the people' every time an unconstitutional law is passed. But it is about all those who spend endless time and taxpayer money dreaming up and then pushing for Unconstitutional laws have left to shout...
 
It doesn't HAVE to do it...it's just must more efficient than everybody going out and getting lawyers to compile a list of documents giving someone that same rights a marriage license does. It's the reason why most people are happy with the government issuing them.

I see, so if the government can make peoples lives easier in a certain activity they desire to take part in the government should take it on themselves do it. What other activities should they handle for people?
 
and sexual preference is not covered or addressed in the constitution so again your argument is fantasy and has nothing to do with reality

doesnt have to be :shrug:
its also not my argument, it has nothing to do with me its just facts and reality
see all the court cases, laws, rights and court precedence that prove you wrong

what FACTS do you have that says otherwise and says all the facts, rights, laws, court cases and court precedence doesnt matter? please let us know
 
So according to you then the majority of the population are bigots who discriminate. So having a referendum now days is meaningless, if some progressive fascist smuck disagrees they shop it to a idealogical judge who will rule on socialist progessive idealogy & not the constitution. Welcome to a top down Authoritarian state as long as it go's your way who cares about the will of the majority huh?

The only bigots that I see in this issue are the ones who call others bigots for having a differing opinion.

tyranny of the majority**

at least get that right
 
I see, so if the government can make peoples lives easier in a certain activity they desire to take part in the government should take it on themselves do it. What other activities should they handle for people?

Well that would depend wouldn't it? Are you arguing that if the government makes it as easy as possible for people to couple up which has been part of the human condition since...well ever...that it's a slippery slope to the government buying you jet ski?
 
Well that would depend wouldn't it? Are you arguing that if the government makes it as easy as possible for people to couple up which has been part of the human condition since...well ever...that it's a slippery slope to the government buying you jet ski?

No, it wouldn't depend. Your argument is build on the idea that if the government can make things easier for people they should do it. Btw, moving your goal post to something being old doesn't help you much either.
 
This is a complete lie even "Liberal" California rejected it only to have the authoritarian left reverse it, which is now the leftist model for what to do in the rest of the country. Impose it on the people despite many who dont agree, with an Iron fist! .... or gavel if you will.

There's nothing liberal about california or any other state. This country is perpetually 10 years behind others at minimum. Support for gay rights is at like 88% in spain. That's liberal.

Even in conservative california, support will reach that point. Just give it another 10 years.
 
You are on the wrong side of history, the public and what is right.

You want to split the nation? Go form your own damned country. We are doing just fine in these 50 states.

I would love for all the phobics out there to go form their own country of hate and misery. Where can they go though? Even oklahoma won't take them now. Perhaps they can find some uninhabited island.
 
Not giving a **** about the rule of law and pretending imaginary rights are in plain English documents = "the good guys?"

Uh-huh. Suuuuure.

While contracts should be freely made between consenting adults, this is a matter for the legislature. The courts pretending the Constitution says anything about this whatsoever is obscene and absurd. It's an act of boldface lying to the public.

The legislature failed to do its job upholding the constitution is why the courts have to step in at all.
 
No, it wouldn't depend.
It kind of would. That's why we have elected officials and a voting process...to help decide that kind of stuff.

Your argument is build on the idea that if the government can make things easier for people they should do it.
To an extent...you're the one that broadened it into some all inclusive Law of when Iliveonramen believes government should get involved.

Btw, moving your goal post to something being old doesn't help you much either.
Actually the argument is that human beings coupling is pretty basic part of being human not an argument that it's old.
 
It kind of would. That's why we have elected officials and a voting process...to help decide that kind of stuff.

How many goalposts do you have? Should I go around cutting them down before we begin posting so that you can stay on point?

To an extent...you're the one that broadened it into some all inclusive Law of when Iliveonramen believes government should get involved.

So you believe in the principle that government should be involved in activities if it can make peoples lives easier, but impose a limit on it's extent? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.

Actually the argument is that human beings coupling is pretty basic part of being human not an argument that it's old.

Your argument was essentially marriage is old and therefore the government should be involved. It's just as weak as your other arguments you have presented so far.
 
What if a totally RED state, like say Texas somehow found itself in the same predicament with an judge ruling away the will of the people on a social matter were to say, F-U Judge, and inform it's State employees that the ruling of the people is the law, and NOT that of the court. Ok, so the USSC would have to rule on this once and for all, and say they rule that States don't have a right to define marriage, and rule with gays, and then the state says screw you, you're misapplying the meaning of what citizens have a right to decide for themselves. So then what? What is the Federal government going to do about it? I ask in all seriousness because the Fed's can cut off any federal funding or they could use force (Doubtful), but using force would cause an outright rebellion from the other states. The point here is that these lower court rulings are emotional, and in my honest well educated opinion, are not based on the proper interpretations of the Constitution.

I've stated many times that, citizens have a right to decide for themselves, and as locally as possible what kind of community they want to live in. Mobility allows those that do not agree to reside elsewhere, and if your laws are so far out there, then no one will live there and the town, municipality, or State will go bankrupt, or be forced to change due to a lack of constituency. With all the in and outs of what the Founders wanted in a nation, this one thing rings true on every level. The founders wanted the states to be sovereign republics, and within the states themselves they wanted the localities to direct public policy. The thinking was, and still is that, if a locality is run properly, the locality will stand or fall based on its policies. The Federal government was only ever needed to regulate commerce between the states, protect our borders, have a standing army, and to conduct trade, and wage war. The Federal government by slowly but surely disproportionately taxing all US citizens has grown to a point where they buy the states compliance or punish if not complaint with its wishes. This to me, is wrong headed, and we deserve the government we have, but no one in their right mind would want a government that forces social policy on its citizens by judicial fiat.

For the record, DO NOT say that SSM is about equality. I disregard that philosophy. Homosexuality is a sexual fetish, no different than any other fetish. Heterosexuality is the baseline potential of all humans, and most animals, IMO, and however and whenever someone waivers from that, whether exclusively or partially doesn't change that assertion, IMO. If a heterosexual engages in anal sex, that is a fetish, if they engage in drinking someone else's urine, that is a fetish, if it's in wanting to have sex with a child, that is a fetish. Some fetishes have become socially acceptable while some others remain not so much, but make no mistake, when it comes to what is socially acceptable, the people should decide. No one wants to take away the homosexual fetish and of those that wish to practice it either exclusively, or on occasion, but lets all please stop pretending that homosexuality is on equal ground with heterosexuality, and therefore in my opinion not worthy of any claim to equal marriage rights.


Tim-

We've been there and done that. People in the South rebelled because they wanted to keep slaves. A war was fought over that, and the South lost.
 
We've been there and done that. People in the South rebelled because they wanted to keep slaves. A war was fought over that, and the South lost.

not what "i" want, i just want equality and luckily thats whats winning

but i say if people are actually that mentally inept and or bigoted enough to want to fight over the fed granting and protecting equal rights I say bring it on.

This way these type of anti-freedom and anti-rights people are quickly and easily identified and can be dealt with. They can rebel, fight and die or simply move to Russia if they choose. They will never be happy in a free country like this anyway.
 
I would love for all the phobics out there to go form their own country of hate and misery. Where can they go though? Even oklahoma won't take them now. Perhaps they can find some uninhabited island.


Some extreme libertarians tried the uninhabited island trick, moved onto an island belonging to the Kingdom of Tonga. Needless to say, the mighty Tongan navy dispatched them within hours. People gotta understand, it is not 1955, it is not 1965, it is not 1975...the world changes, people grow, things change, adapt and embrace, or just be the angry old man who hates the world. Their choice, the rest of us will move forward.
 
Some extreme libertarians tried the uninhabited island trick, moved onto an island belonging to the Kingdom of Tonga. Needless to say, the mighty Tongan navy dispatched them within hours. People gotta understand, it is not 1955, it is not 1965, it is not 1975...the world changes, people grow, things change, adapt and embrace, or just be the angry old man who hates the world. Their choice, the rest of us will move forward.

Some plantation owners simply packed up and moved to brazil, where slavery was legal still. Could've done that sooner and spared the country a war. Reading digsbe's post on "revolution" over this, how selfish can one get? Spare us the trouble and move to uganda already, where that mindset fits right in.

I could also point out the massive contradiction between violence to get one's way and a savior who goes willingly to crucifixion but hey.
 
EXCEPT that this isn't changing anyone INTO a second class citizen but freeing a few folks from being second class citizens. Kinda opposite day on that.

Be careful what you wish for when it comes to violence, or better yet have you a most excellent hidie hole because revolt isn't neat and tidy and many 'just' folks end up buzzard bait in the streets. Not sure how the Union will divide on this, this isn't as much a regional thing as your neighbor thing.

The biggest problem with the 'Right for States to define marriage' is that right isn't without limits. Can a state define marriage as only within one's race? This doesn't redefine anything, it EXPANDS a definition.

Where the State's Rights crowd miss the mark on this, and a few other issues, is the deciding which consenting adults are allowed to do something, but not others of equal legal status (ie not felons with handguns or untrained 'doctors' practicing medicine) is not a State Right. The Constitution is quite clear on equal rights- some would say traditionally a woman isn't granted 'equal rights' as she was made second, made to be a 'helper', made subservient. So quoting 'what was' doesn't so it ever shall be, even while singing it in a hymn.

There need be no Constitutional Amendment on this. That is a forlorn hope stall tactic.

Does a ban on same sex marriage pass Constitutional muster?

You see Oklahoma didn't define marriage or even restrict it to man/woman, we BANNED same sex marriage. Stupid tactic by hyper partisan religious Conservatives.

It is a foolish lament to decry the 'the will of the people' every time an unconstitutional law is passed. But it is about all those who spend endless time and taxpayer money dreaming up and then pushing for Unconstitutional laws have left to shout...

/endofdiscussion

Nicely put.
 
Yes, I would like to talk about how you can pretend the Constitution says anything about gay marriage, as written, as ratified, or even as amended.

The hallucinations of others is not much justification when talking about the written word and the rule of law. Why should I care about "state interest" when there is nothing in the text about any such thing?

You want to pretend that in 1868 when the 14th Amendment was written - written as it was, chiefly in regard to the practices of slavery like its peers the 13th and 15th - it was intended and in fact did apply to gay marriage, that gay marriage has been an official constitutional right since 1868, despite not being explicitly stated as such.

I mean, again, sure, I don't think anyone should be forbidden from making such a contract with whomever they like, regardless of their gender, but to pretend the text says something it doesn't and then to force such hallucinations on others remains tyrannical absurdity.

He did not say ANY such thing in the post you quoted:

Equal protection under the law applies to the states. Gender is one of several protected classifications. In order to uphold a gender-based classification, a state must show an important state interest in making that classification, and show that their measure is substantially related to that interest. Defining marriage as between one man and one woman is a gender-based classification that limits my freedom to choose with whom I enter a particular legal contract.

It is a matter for the courts to overturn an unconstitutional law. Under equal protection, the burden is on the state to justify its discrimination.

Provide that state interest.

You want to talk about rule of law? You're the one defending an unconstitutional law under some guise of states' rights.

He provided the basis for why preventing gays from marrying is discrimination, he never said ANYTHING about SSM being mentioned in or called out in the Constitution.

When you write stuff....do you think that the other person's responses magically disappear to others???? We DO see your fantasizing and irrelevancies.

Edit:

And after all that, and after he clarified it AGAIN with ZERO mention of SSM, you post this:

So to clarify, you do think the right to gay marriage was explicitly put into the Constitution as a constitutional right in 1868 and that right has been violated ever since then?

Apparently you dont find it difficult to just write bold face lies. This probably isnt news to you, but you have ZERO credibility.
 
Last edited:
1.)He did not say ANY such thing in the post you quoted:



2.)He provided the basis for why preventing gays from marrying is discrimination, he never said ANYTHING about SSM being mentioned in or called out in the Constitution.

3.)When you write stuff....do you think that the other person's responses magically disappear to others???? We DO see your fantasizing and irrelevancies.

1.)dont use FACTS to destroy fantasy and strawmen its not fair ;)
2.) correct
3.) yes thats the case reality and facts are ignored and strawman and fantasy are posted for an reply but honest and rational posters never buy it since facts prove otherwise.
 
What if a totally RED state, like say Texas somehow found itself in the same predicament with an judge ruling away the will of the people on a social matter were to say, F-U Judge, and inform it's State employees that the ruling of the people is the law, and NOT that of the court. Ok, so the USSC would have to rule on this once and for all, and say they rule that States don't have a right to define marriage, and rule with gays, and then the state says screw you, you're misapplying the meaning of what citizens have a right to decide for themselves. So then what? What is the Federal government going to do about it? I ask in all seriousness because the Fed's can cut off any federal funding or they could use force (Doubtful), but using force would cause an outright rebellion from the other states. The point here is that these lower court rulings are emotional, and in my honest well educated opinion, are not based on the proper interpretations of the Constitution.

I've stated many times that, citizens have a right to decide for themselves, and as locally as possible what kind of community they want to live in.

Of course they can cut off federal funding and of course TX would cave. The feds used similar tactics when it came to changing the drinking ages, speed limits, seat belt laws, etc.

And because of its discriminatory basis which has been explained throughout this thread, the decision is Constitutional, which is probably more than the examples I gave were. As such, the tyranny of the majority may not decide the fate of the minority.

I'll just ignore your prehistoric and unfounded opinion on homosexuality. That ignorance does not lend itself to credibility on other subjects.
 
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