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Thread: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

  1. #191
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Yeah? go look up what legal marriage is... Outside of Church vows...

    What is it tell me!!!!
    Legal marriage is a contract between two people which makes them legally kin and each other's closest legal relative. It gives some limited legal recognition of families of a person's spouse as well, aka inlaws. It is, in general, a contract that comes with certain legal and limited financial responsibilities but also comes with benefits and privileges, especially those given already to legal blood relatives or relationships created through other means (adoption). That is what it is for every person in the US who is married. A person could change some of these, but there will always be at least that established legal kinship as long as the marriage is legal.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #192
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Some may see it as that, and honestly I could care less and expect many of your opinion to see my post and views that way.

    The state's should have the right to define marriage and uphold the traditional definition of marriage that has been the legal precedence for many years. There have been no new amendments to the Constitution regarding sexuality or private sex practices. People have been making the political and ethical arguments that one's personal sex choices and relationships are somehow a protected right and no state can uphold traditional marriage because those sex practices and relationships do not fit within that definition. If they want this a Constitutional Amendment should be added, rulings shouldn't happen due to changes in public opinion or judicial activism. Stretching the Constitution to make classes of people, based on their sexual preferences and practices, protected classes and revoking and denying people the ability to make laws that are very much in line with past popular beliefs is tyranny. It is tyrannical to force the states that have upheld traditional marriage, and the people of those states who voted on such, to remove those laws is making those people second class citizens, trampling on their state's right to govern, and imposing a social view in a tyrannical way without an amendment ratified into the Constitution. I don't think any rational person would say that such rulings would happen 50 years ago or maybe even 30 years ago, only until recently with political pushes and changes in social beliefs do we see these things. People lost political battles, and now they want to force their opinion and beliefs into laws by trying to enshrine their views as the ultimate law of the land and in doing so restricting the freedoms of others to vote. I have absolutely no problem if states want to legalize SSM or if they want to uphold traditional marriage. However, that should be left up to the states and the Constitution, as it is now, should not force states that uphold traditional marriage to reject legally held definitions and having social changes on the issue be the driving force behind revoking the voting privileges and rights of others.
    And all of this rant could easily be used against interracial or even interfaith marriages, to uphold laws that banned such marriages. Interracial marriage bans were very traditional (the first ones were laws prior to us even becoming a country, and most states had laws in place against interracial marriages sometime within our history). The people, voters absolutely supported interracial marriage bans, some places in much higher percentages than we see now with same sex marriage bans. In fact, polls in the 1970s showed that around 70% of the US population as a whole favored banning interracial marriages. Even many minorities were against interracial marriage. And it was viewed, at least then (in some places still), to be a religious belief. And since everyone was still allowed to get married, it really did not prevent anyone from getting married due to their specific race, but rather prevented a person from marrying the person they would prefer due to their preference of one race to another, just as same sex marriage bans prevent a person from marrying the person they would prefer due to their preference of one sex/gender to the other.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #193
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    And there's the problem. Gays are so caught up with getting what they want that they don't care about respecting the Constitution. So long as they get their agenda item, **** the country.

    I support SSM, but the way to accomplish it is with the introduction of the 28th Amendment defining marriage. Then the 14th Amendment applies and all states will have to comply.
    The 14th already applies. It is stupid to have yet another Amendment to clarify something that already has standing legal precedent, even within SCOTUS decisions.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #194
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Equal protection means protecting the rights of voter's and respecting state laws and autonomy on marriage policy. Losing a political battle in a state and trying to work around it in the courts with courts reacting on social opinion and personal values is tyranny. The judge in this case waited 9 years before making this ruling and quoted the current case in Utah as precedence (one that has stay and is being appealed).
    Equal protection means protecting the rights of all people, citizens, not just voters. It is absolutely meant to limit state laws that would violate the rights of people.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #195
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    That was my point - Marriage is a) not state recognized (beyond contract law) and b) generally only recognized by the Church or in front of God..

    The State doesn't recognize one or the other.... If they did the argument would be a First Amendment argument and not a Fourteenth (or other issues associated) "equal protection clause" argument.

    The Fourteenth is useless given the aforementioned criteria.
    My marriage is only recognized by the state and anyone who wishes to recognize it (including our family and friends, coworkers, work, pretty much everyone we do business with that cares, and most people we meet). I'm sure there would be plenty of churches that would recognize our marriage if we cared to even inform them of it, but since we are not religious, there is no specific church that has ever flat out recognized my marriage to my husband, nor is it required.

    You really aren't arguing anything here. You are simply trying stating stuff that doesn't mean anything to the issue at hand. Religion recognizes personal marriages. It is in fact part of the personal aspect of marriage, not the legal aspect. And when we discuss laws dealing with marriage, we are discussing the legal aspect of marriage. Just like if we discussed laws dealing with parents and children, such as custody, parental rights, visitation, child support, etc., we would be discussing the legal aspect of parenting. It would only apply to those who are legally recognized as parents. My mother and father may each claim my best friend as their "child", but legally it doesn't mean anything. She is not my legal sibling (which sucks, but she is an adult). Doesn't prevent me from calling her "sis", but it does prevent me from invoking the Family Leave Act should something happen to her.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #196
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Do people not realize that state issued marriage licenses are legal contracts?

    Yeah, that is why a woman can sue a man and take all his **** in a divorce!!!!

    This has nothing to do with recognizing marriage!!!!
    Here is your issue. You fail to recognize that this is a special form of contract, similar in nature to an adoption contract, in that it grants state-recognition of legal kinship, which, in itself, comes with legal rights and privileges.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #197
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    Provide the state interest in restricting incestual marriages. After you cite birth defects, explain why they still restrict incestual gay marriages. Or provide the state interest in being involved in a marriage contract at all.
    They could easily be challenged, but they would not have the same arguments. Birth defects are not the only thing at issue here (birth defects would actually be for laws regarding incestuous relationships, including marriage but not limited to marriage). There is also the argument that the kinship granted with marriage already exists for those who would be considered incestuous marriages in most cases. In fact, I see first cousins (and any further out kinship relationships) marrying as the next marriage battle. I see a public battle on certain tiers of blood relationship laws being fought in the relatively near future. And it likely won't be a such a large war as this one considering Rhode Island currently has no criminal incest laws (although they do not allow certain relations to marry) and no one seems to care, yet everyone was all up in arms against same sex marriage in the US since the first inkling that any state may actually allow such marriages, let alone relationships. But there is also the very real question in cases of incest of "when did the relationship begin", since there is a much higher chance of undue influence in such relationships.

    Overall, though, the laws would have to be challenged before it would be an issue. They aren't being challenged and won't likely be (at least not for close blood relations) for at least another generation or so.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #198
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    You've asked me no question. The core of your opinion, is that equal protection applies unless the state can prove interest.

    What is the state's interest in a marriage contract?
    The state's interest in a marriage contract is the same interest it has in keeping public records of adoption or birth (birth certificates), to keep track of legal kinship. This goes into inheritance law, tax law, ownership law (there is at least one specific law that treats married couples owning a house differently than any other person/combination of people owning a house), legal decision making (such as who gets to make legal decisions for another person in case of death or inability to do so), child custody law, next of kin informing in event of emergency/tragedy, Family Leave Act and similar acts/laws dealing with rights of families, contract law, and many other areas of law that are simply easier to deal with if the government has a legal record of kinship, such as a birth certificate, adoption papers, or marriage license (which basically becomes a marriage contract right after it is completely filled out and filed with the state).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #199
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why does something being expensive mean the government has to do it?
    The government already does it at a much smaller cost. It is stupid to make the process less efficient, and for no real reason except some don't really understand why the government is involved in the first place.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #200
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    Re: US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I see, so if the government can make peoples lives easier in a certain activity they desire to take part in the government should take it on themselves do it. What other activities should they handle for people?
    Other activities that the people want them to handle, including some they already do, such as education and the mail and protection of the public through police (something that really wasn't even done until the last century and a half or so, at least not recognizable as we do it now), to name a few. There are plenty of things that the public, voters, citizens ask the government to do for them because it is more efficiently done by the government rather than privately with each individual.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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