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Thread: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality [W:23]

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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    There isnt enough demand though, which is why there is no competition.
    If you're telling me there's not enough demand at this point to find an alternative to Cable Television, then using the argument "YAY! Net Neutrality is destroyed and that's a good thing because it will cause the private sector to come up with an alternative for distribution of internet access!" is not only exceedingly weak but fully laughable. If Cable Television isn't problematic enough or sparks enough demand for something better at this point I have no reason the internet equivilent to that process is going to reach your imagined level of "demand".

    pathetically repeating tired rhetoric while ignoring reality is wonderful and all, but is no different than you saying "Maybe a Unicorn will appear and shoot internet access out of it's ass" because it's about as realistic.

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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    If you're telling me there's not enough demand at this point to find an alternative to Cable Television, then using the argument "YAY! Net Neutrality is destroyed and that's a good thing because it will cause the private sector to come up with an alternative for distribution of internet access!" is not only exceedingly weak but fully laughable. If Cable Television isn't problematic enough or sparks enough demand for something better at this point I have no reason the internet equivilent to that process is going to reach your imagined level of "demand".

    pathetically repeating tired rhetoric while ignoring reality is wonderful and all, but is no different than you saying "Maybe a Unicorn will appear and shoot internet access out of it's ass" because it's about as realistic.
    Quite a few people take Econ 101 and think it makes them experts on economic theory. We call those people "libertarians."

    It's akin to taking Physics 101 and believing yourself qualified to be an engineer.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  3. #113
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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And people can frolic around hand in hand under a rainbow while gum drops fall from the sky.

    Look at your own post above. How long has there been "Demand" for something better than the ****ty, horrible, raping us in the ass cable company structures? Decades. And even now, there's been little significant "invention" of "something better" in large part because cable has such a devastating and complete hold Cable has on the situation.

    Oh, and shocker…some of the few inventions that actually have been made that, almost by accident, helped that problem? Things like Netflix, Hulu? Guess what they’re dependent on…oh right, the same internet that said cable providers control.

    You have first hand, indisputable, clear example of how that principle you just suggested DOESN’T WORK in the realm of the Telecoms under our current existing paradigm. And that’s in the modern day with the free and clear sharing of ideas and information leveraging the power of the internet; not a situation where said invention would need to be done in a boxed off walled garden that your telecom decides is the corner of the internet you need.

    The irony here is that you BOTH seem to think that there is some place where people frolic hand in hand under rainbows while gum drops falling from the sky. Johnny 5 thinks we will get there regardless, you think corporations have locked the gates that lead there.

    Neither position is entirely accurate or entirely inaccurate. As someone who works in telecommunications the idea that the last ten years has been limited advancement is absurd, though. Telecommunications and computing have been shattering theoretical limits on computing very regularly. 15 years ago the internet was accessible to a fraction of the worlds population at the speed of 56kbps. Today it reaches almost every square inch of the world with the proper equipment that is getting cheaper by the day at speeds that are orders of magnitude faster than 56kbps.

    If this is restrained growth then I fear you will never be satisfied.
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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    The irony here is that you BOTH seem to think that there is some place where people frolic hand in hand under rainbows while gum drops falling from the sky. Johnny 5 thinks we will get there regardless, you think corporations have locked the gates that lead there.

    Neither position is entirely accurate or entirely inaccurate. As someone who works in telecommunications the idea that the last ten years has been limited advancement is absurd, though. Telecommunications and computing have been shattering theoretical limits on computing very regularly. 15 years ago the internet was accessible to a fraction of the worlds population at the speed of 56kbps. Today it reaches almost every square inch of the world with the proper equipment that is getting cheaper by the day at speeds that are orders of magnitude faster than 56kbps.

    If this is restrained growth then I fear you will never be satisfied.
    Take a look at internet access in other countries and get back to me.

    The ISPs, by the nature of the internet, control the gates. There are severe problems with infrastructure that prevent reasonable competition.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    As someone who works in telecommunications the idea that the last ten years has been limited advancement is absurd, though.
    I'm confused as to why you're referencing me and then say this as some kind of evidence that I'm also being unrealistic considering I've never said in any fashion that telecommunications, and specifically technology/computers has had limited advancement.

    I stated that over the past 2 decades as people have been complaining about Cable Television and how it works that there's been limited actual significant advancement in creating worthwhile alternatives. And that based on that, it's unreasonable to think that if internet access begins to look like Cable TV packages that we're magically going to have some kind of "free market" worth while viable alternative pop up.

    I have no issue with how internet access has been growing and expanding...it's a wonderful thing and has been going at a great pace. But it's largely all based on the same foundational backbone, which is what makes the potential for a handful of companies to significantly impact how data flows on those back bones so troublesome. And you highlight one of the points; many of the advancements in telecommunications has came from the telecommunications industry...it's unreasonable to expect that any of the major players are going to spend the resources and time to find an "alternative" method of data transfer if they've gotten full controll over the current method. Just like there's no big reason for Cable Companies to try and come up with significant "alternative" methods of cable television distribution.

    As to the difference between Johnny5 and I....there's little evidence of a viable, substantial, true alternative to cable television so there's little reason to believe there'd magically be such for internet data transfer. On my side, there's actual, verifiable, factual examples of Telecoms specifically doing or proposing the type of throttling and walling off that I'm suggesting would occur. That's not imaginary, that's reality.

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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Take a look at internet access in other countries and get back to me.

    The ISPs, by the nature of the internet, control the gates. There are severe problems with infrastructure that prevent reasonable competition.
    Would you care to make an actual argument regarding internet access in other countries rather than a vague statement?
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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No, it doesn't. Because Comcast owns all the lines in your neighborhood so anyone wanting to "compete" has to go through them anyway.
    Unless someone runs new lines, hence my original statement of "competing open infrastructure".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Mind you, backbone that we the people largely subsidized and paid for.
    Are you refering to E-Rate subsidies, or something else?

    In either case, using Comcast as an example, how much did they spend on the backbone and how much was paid via subsidies?
    Last edited by Samhain; 01-15-14 at 11:40 AM.

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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm confused as to why you're referencing me and then say this as some kind of evidence that I'm also being unrealistic considering I've never said in any fashion that telecommunications, and specifically technology/computers has had limited advancement.
    Because you were responding to a statement that innovation would create competition in the telecom market and you equating that to rainbows and raining gum drops. Johnny5's point is valid and shouldn't be dismissed so quickly as wishful thinking.

    I stated that over the past 2 decades as people have been complaining about Cable Television and how it works that there's been limited actual significant advancement in creating worthwhile alternatives. And that based on that, it's unreasonable to think that if internet access begins to look like Cable TV packages that we're magically going to have some kind of "free market" worth while viable alternative pop up.
    Well sure, but when one company shuts off access to its customers it creates a business opportunity for another company. I think the bigger threat would come from exclusivity deals rather than simple blocking and tiering. The latter would be a headache to manage.

    I have no issue with how internet access has been growing and expanding...it's a wonderful thing and has been going at a great pace. But it's largely all based on the same foundational backbone, which is what makes the potential for a handful of companies to significantly impact how data flows on those back bones so troublesome. And you highlight one of the points; many of the advancements in telecommunications has came from the telecommunications industry...it's unreasonable to expect that any of the major players are going to spend the resources and time to find an "alternative" method of data transfer if they've gotten full controll over the current method. Just like there's no big reason for Cable Companies to try and come up with significant "alternative" methods of cable television distribution.
    Well of course not, they are interested in technology that makes them cheaper and faster, and good for them. Companies like Google would be the ones driving the alternative technologies.

    I was thinking about this the other day as I set up my new Chromecast on my TV. I was freaked out for a second when I turned on my TV and Chromecast was asking me to go to a website to configure the device. When I went to the site the screen on the TV immediately changed to acknowledge I have visited the website and asked me if I wanted to set up the internet connection on the Chromecast. How was it communicating with the outside world if the internet wasn't configured?! :P
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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Because you were responding to a statement that innovation would create competition in the telecom market and you equating that to rainbows and raining gum drops. Johnny5's point is valid and shouldn't be dismissed so quickly as wishful thinking.
    No, I was responding to a statement that there should be no worry about the internet being substantially throttled because it would lead to innovative alternative solutions. And it's not a valid point, as we have a great analog example of significant displeasure with a current telecom standard and little significant and viable alternatives springing from it.

    Well of course not, they are interested in technology that makes them cheaper and faster, and good for them. Companies like Google would be the ones driving the alternative technologies.
    And I have no issue with them looking for things that make it cheaper and faster for them....unless it's at the deteriment of the consumer, and is at our detriment in large part because of the power regulations already in place bestow upon those companies.

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    Re: U.S. appeals court kills net neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    If you're telling me there's not enough demand at this point to find an alternative to Cable Television, then using the argument "YAY! Net Neutrality is destroyed and that's a good thing because it will cause the private sector to come up with an alternative for distribution of internet access!" is not only exceedingly weak but fully laughable. If Cable Television isn't problematic enough or sparks enough demand for something better at this point I have no reason the internet equivilent to that process is going to reach your imagined level of "demand".

    pathetically repeating tired rhetoric while ignoring reality is wonderful and all, but is no different than you saying "Maybe a Unicorn will appear and shoot internet access out of it's ass" because it's about as realistic.
    So long as people are continuing to pay comcast millions of dollars, comcast will not change. Economics 101.

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