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Thread: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer[W:173:381]

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No, he did not resist arrest.
    He most certainly did.

    So you are wrong.
    The video clearly shows him resist.


    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    a reason to kill him in your opinion.
    This is a wildly absurd and inaccurate statement.
    Is that all you got?
    Just pathetic emotive nonsense?
    Last edited by Excon; 01-24-14 at 06:11 AM.
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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer[W:173:381]

    Just image what police groupies would have wanted done to that guy if he had done anything illegal or even just suspected of doing something illegal? Probably cut off his face and genitals, run over him multiple times with a squad car and then set his body on fire. But since he hadn't actually broken any laws, they probably figure it should have been limited to destroying his face and crushing him to death into concrete in deference to his being a law abiding citizen - other than being poor and shirtless.

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer[W:173:381]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Just image what police groupies would have wanted done to that guy if he had done anything illegal or even just suspected of doing something illegal? Probably cut off his face and genitals, run over him multiple times with a squad car and then set his body on fire. But since he hadn't actually broken any laws, they probably figure it should have been limited to destroying his face and crushing him to death into concrete in deference to his being a law abiding citizen - other than being poor and shirtless.
    Another fact you have wrong.

    The Officers were responding to a call.
    There was that suspicion that they were checking out.

    And then, he was suspected of doing wrong.
    As previously pointed out.
    Suspicion of a 496.
    You can here the say it in the video even.
    He had mail/property that belonged to another.
    CAL. PEN. CODE § 496 : California Code - Section 496
    Last edited by Excon; 01-24-14 at 06:19 AM.
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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    The system?
    A jury represents the people.
    No it doesn't. It's just one of your wild claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Anyways, these Officer were doing their job with a person who was resisting with great force.
    It was unfortunate he died because he chose to resist, but it is not criminal on their part.
    They were doing their job. He chose to resist. resist what? He died because he chose to resist, which was not criminal on his part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    At most, it is as opportunity to review and/or enhance training to establish protocol for such extreme situations. Training that will avoid the use of the body where it could unintentionally crush the chest.
    Why? you seem okay with it. Why change something that works so well?

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by sKiTzo View Post
    No it doesn't. It's just one of your wild claims.

    Wrong.

    They sit there in representation of the whole community. Do you really not know that?


    Quote Originally Posted by sKiTzo View Post
    They were doing their job. He chose to resist. resist what? He died because he chose to resist, which was not criminal on his part.
    What do you mean resist what? You are going to extremes here and gaining no traction. He was resisting the attempt to subdue him. He was already told to get on the ground and failed to comply with the order, and then attempted to flee. He was resisting arrest.

    And while Kelly was later cleared of any wrong doing because of the idiotic emotive public outcry, you can guarantee that had he been quickly subdued, he would have a resisting arrest charge stemming from this incident.


    Quote Originally Posted by sKiTzo View Post
    Why? you seem okay with it. Why change something that works so well?
    I guess you are just showing that you do not understand what I have said.
    I am okay with it to that point that I understand what happened, and that the actions of the Officer's were not criminal.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    If you have anything to show what happened was on the "mandate of City Council" present it.
    First some background/history....the befores and afters

    Rodney *can't we all get along* King was subdued with batons aka PR-24 hits as per LAPD policy at that particular time. After that incident LAPD *implemented* a policy of not wrasslin' with resistive non compliant subjects because too many LEOs were getting hurt fighting *said suspects*....wow, what to do? Reinstate *use of force policies*...of course

    LA LEOs were ordered to beat resistive suspects into submission

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Said the unreasonable person. Figures.


    I haven't twisted anything.
    Kelly resisted.
    You saying he wasn't, is twisting. Next.



    As I already told you, providing such videos as you have in nonsense. We know what not resisting looks like. Kelly was resisting.
    Besides that though, you seem to be confused as to what I said I could provide. Just standing there and taking a beating? WTF? I never said anything of the sort.
    Just another example of you twisting.


    You can not guarantee anything. So can it.
    And your take of what happened is further spin.
    He didn't go straight to screaming. That is nothing but spin on your part.
    Kelly had already been non-cooperative and continued his game when given instructions.
    Kelly escalated the situation by not cooperating.


    I keep saying this matters not. Do you really not understand that?
    Do you really think an Officer has to tell you he is arresting you before actually arresting you?


    Matters not.
    Why you think this matters is beyond comprehension.
    And the rest is just your usual bs spin. Responding to a report on Kelly is not harassing him. Reacting to Kelly's actions was lawful.


    More absurdity. There were no rouge cops here. That is just your spin.
    And no Kelly was not terrified at the beginning. He was non-cooperative from the get and escalated it to the point of failing to comply, resisting, and fleeing. He did not attempt to flee because he was scared or terrified. He even attempted to bait the Officer into hitting him. That is not being scared or terrified. So can the bs.


    Your videos are meaningless.
    They do not show Kelly. Or the reality of his arrest and resistance.
    They are meaningless to that.


    More idiotic spin. There was no rouge cops.
    These were Officers doing their jobs. Nothing more than that.


    Do you really not understand that the video is meaningless to this case.
    Why you continually harp on a meaningless video is beyond comprehension.
    It is irrelevant.
    And get a clue. You can not say a video created for tv, as in edited to show what they want it to show, is an accurate representation.


    It serves to subdue him
    Officers are allowed to use force in subduing a person, and with Kelly's resistance being so great, as testified to, the Officers thought they were out of options.
    And after tasering Kelly multiple times with no effect, it is no wonder that they thought that.


    Cont. Below.

    I see you're resorting to your usual tools of the trade by simply dismissing any argument you can't handle as "meaningless" and "matters not". That's not the way to argue, Excon. At least not in a mature and logical debate.
    Let me say this again. Kelly was clubbed by Wolfe and Ramos without cause on each side of his knee as he backed away from their vicious attack. Now you called that resisting?


    And when he was clubbed down to the ground following a short chase and was then pinned to the ground with crushing weights to the point of fractured ribs and suffocation on top of being tased multiple times and pummeled senseless into a pulp, you called his instinctive reaction to pain and preservation of life as resisting?


    Of course, any human being in that circumstances is going to resist being beaten and crushed to death. Even if, that's a big IF, he resisted, would resisting arrest justify being crushed and pummeled senseless in the head and face to a pulp until comatose and subsequent death? Wouldn't you also have resisted under such circumstance to save your soul from such vicious attack?


    Or do you think you would just lay there completely relaxed trusting they would not harm you while they had already relentlessly rained down blows after blows into your body, your head and face and tased you repeatedly in quick succession without giving you so much as a chance to even comply? And you expect Kelly or any person in that circumstance not be terrorized?


    Any reasonable person viewing the tape would come to the conclusion that Ramos was there to harass and humilate Kelly with intent to stir up trouble. For a Mexican/Hispanic person to taunt Kelly, who was a White American, for not able to understand English and repeatedly asking to know what languages he spoke, if that's not an attempt to belittle and harass him, what is?


    You said responding to a report on Kelly is not harassing him. But, you are wrong on your fact. The caller did not specifically state it was Kelly. Ramos and Wolfe did not even go to contact the caller at the restaurant where the call was made and thus nobody had even identified or pointed a finger at Kelly on the scene.


    Ramos and White also didn't get any info regarding which cars were involved where the car doors who jiggled. If they had conducted their investigation properly instead of harassing a homeless man for no reason, they would have dusted the car doors for finger prints so as to match out with whoever was accused. But, they didn't.

    Instead, they went straight to Kelly whom they knew from their past dealings and acted like they had no idea who Kelly was. And then they started to harass him for a long time without just cause while Kelly was put through unreasonable commands meted out just to humiliate him which he tried to comply as best as he could until Ramos put on his gloves and threatened to f**k him up.

    It was Ramos who initiated the confrontation by putting his hand on Kelly's left arm as shown in the video while Kelly was still seated in a non-threatening way on the curb with his legs extended and hands on the knees as he was told to do.


    So, don't you think Ramos' so-called investigation had already started with a conduct unbecoming of a police officer?


    But, we also know that Kelly had many previous run-ins with Ramos in which Ramos was tired of Kelly coming back sleeping at the bus depot despite being harassed by Ramos repeatedly. At one point Ramos threw away Kelly's belonging and even prevented him to go back to find his clothing and ordered him to go away in the reverse direction. With such unreasonable action on Ramos' part, Kelly didn't even reacted violently towards Ramos for his mistreatment.

    So, in this incident we can see that Ramos was itching to stir up something in order to justify his unlawful beating of Kelly that would put him out of commission, into a nursing home and away from the bus depot once and for all for good. But, the beat down was beyond his control and Kelly ended up beaten to death.


    No matter how much you try to dismiss all these and my video links showing proper police tactics as meaningless, you are not going to get away with defending the savagery of the rogue cops who crush, tased and pummeled Kelly to his death, in particular Ramos, Cicinelli and Wolfe.

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Cont. from above.

    What was the point?
    You do not seem to understand what being pinned down actually is, or what continuing to resist actually means.
    He was continuing to resist. That is why. They could not get him subdued, that is why. Kelly was also a threat to their safety by resisting.


    Meaningless drivel and spin, as Kelly was still resisting after multiple taserings.
    There were no rouge cops.


    You are speaking of that which you do not know. This is nothing more than an assumption on your part, much like your whole position on this case. Nothing but assumption.


    Matters not. He was resisting and continued to resist. His resistance brought about his death.


    Just more bs.
    If you have to ask "So what?", you are not being objective. The videos are meaningless to this case. Trying to use them as you are is illogical.
    Calling them rouge cops is also a sign of your lack of objectivity.


    You speak of your debate tactic, that is all. Just as you were wrong about Zimmerman, you are again wrong here. Both Jury verdicts say that.

    Being on the ground does not mean being pinned down. He wasn't pinned down. Had he been, an arrest would have been affected. His continued resistance says he wasn't pinned.


    iLOL You are hilarious. You are the only one attempting to twist here.
    It is the facts that do not agree with you and actually fly in the face of what you say.
    The facts, as well as the Jury decision on those facts, makes that abundantly clear.
    Seriously, how do you expect a person to relax and not move when you persistently rain down blow after blow and tasing after tasing without letting off for even a second while being crushed to the point of suffocation?

    How can you keep insisting that the involuntary movement due to pain and the instinctive effort to prevent being suffocated and crushed to death as resisting?

    The officers kept beating him and torturing him every time he instinctively reacted to being tased and pummeled to a pulp while being suffocated by the crushing weights. It's a vicious cycle. There were plenty of occasion the rogue cops were able to grab his hands and legs and cuffed him but they chose to beat him and tased him senseless.

    So, let me see if I tased you multiple times do you think you would just calmly lay there and not move at all at each tasing?

    Like I said, until you have been subjected to the brutal beating, relentless tasing and the fatal crushing of the chest and still can remain calm and still without movement, your dismissal as "matters not" simply rings hollow.

    Haven't you heard that jury decision often times sent innocent men to prison or death sentence for crimes they did not commit and exonerate true criminals to be out to the streets only to commit more murders. Check out the case in the innocence project of innocent men being convicted and sent to prisons for decades for crimes they did not commit, courtesy of the jury decisions.

    All these go to show how unreasonable and relentless your belligerence and out of touch to reality are with your debate tactics.
    Last edited by dolphinocean; 01-24-14 at 07:22 PM.

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    I keep saying this matters not. Do you really not understand that?
    Do you really think an Officer has to tell you he is arresting you before actually arresting you?
    The only time a police officer doesn't tell you you're under arrest is that there is a warrant already out there for your arrest or if you are caught committing a crime and are fleeing or you try to assault the officer when being questioned.

    Otherwise, if Ramos did not tell Kelly he was under arrest, Kelly had the right to walk away from Ramos and not answer any more question. Furthermore, earlier in the video Ramos had repeatedly told Kelly he was not going to arrest him. So, what right did Ramos had to put his hand on Kelly when he was merely seated on the curb and clubbed his knees when he tried to avoid the attack?

    Do you even know the law and your right, Excon?

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    But he died because his chest was crushed.
    Thank you. By ANY definition ANYwhere, crushing a chest is excessive force.

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