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Thread: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer[W:173:381]

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by sKiTzo View Post
    There are 2 types of posters on DP - those who are here for an honest and true debate, and those who are here to "win". The first group consists of people who are genuinely interested in finding answers to issues they are concerned about. They follow the basic protocol for a debate, which is simply to state your point and provide source links, whenever possible. When a counterpoint is raised, you refute it by addressing each point, in detail, and providing source links. Most importantly, KNOW WHEN YOU'RE WRONG. When you can no longer successfully refute a counterpoint, simply acknowledge it and move on. I'm the first to admit if I'm wrong. I'll usually just issue a statement like "I stand corrected".

    The other group will never concede, will ignore or fail to refute valid points that were made proving them wrong, but still claim to be "right" no matter how stupid they look. They are either really dumb citizens who cannot face having their reality shattered, or paid shills.

    Here's what's gonna happen next:
    1. I'll be back with a presentation I'm putting together using the best piece of evidence there is, the video of the murder, to irrefutably show why the jury is wrong
    2.excon will ignore the veritable checkmate, and cling desperately to the one thing, which is, of course, "the jury said so"

    EDIT: 35 minute video of murder hosted by OCRegister.com has been tampered with. The video is now a full 5 min. and 15 sec. out of sync with the audio (that's funny..wasn't like that before). Anyone know where to get the full uncorrupted video?
    Lol.....Someone else who knows everything about police/ policing without every having any first hand knowledge...and who has NEVER had to take into custody a violent, resisting, drug and alcohol-altered subject/EDP

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by blarg View Post
    you appeared to me to to be saying that the police did not cause the mans death so long as they acted legally and professionally I guess I misunderstood you sorry
    What I said, and have been saying, is that his death is a direct result of his actions in forcing the Police to subdue him. Their action in doing so were legal and appropriate.
    His death for that reason falls on his shoulders.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Seriously, get a grip. Your videos mean absolutely nothing to this case.
    N O T H I N G !

    Like I told you, I could also provided videos showing a person not resisting. That would matter. As it would show what not resisting looks like. And clearly Kelly was resisting.
    But yours do not matter as they are not dealing with the Officers involved or with Kelly. You can not make a comparison between such differences.
    You are the only one pretending here. They do not matter.

    <snip>
    You are not even anywhere near marginally reasonable, Excon.

    What you are doing is twisting the fact and dismissing any presentation you can't handle in order to force them to fit your bias and firmly held opinion.

    Yeah, why don't you present videos showing a person not resisting but just standing there and take the clubbing of the police batons on each side of the knee by two rogue cops and then severely beaten, crushed, pummeled on the head and face and tased on the chest multiple times while already down on the ground? You've been crowing about showing the video, why don't you?

    If you do show a video of a person not resisting I can guarantee you that the police office executing the arrest was very professional and handled the situation without jumping into brutality at the very onset. I'd bet the officer would calmly tell the person he was under address and to ask him to turn around and place his hands on his back. None of such was done by Ramos. He went straight to screaming at Kelly to get on the ground soon after harassing and threatening to f**k him up with his gloved fist. At no time did he tell Kelly he was under arrest and for what purpose. As we all know Kelly was minding his own business and did nothing wrong that night. So, what you would be showing is how a professional handling of a lawful arrest should be like vs the brutal unlawful arrest and beat down without just cause.


    You keep saying Kelly was resisting arrest but you ignore the fact that nowhere at anytime in the video had Ramos ever told him he was under arrest
    .


    In fact, earlier Kelly did put out both his hands and asked Ramos to arrest him and get over with it because he was getting tired of being harassed for no reason. But Ramos refused and told him he wasn't done with him. So, not only Ramos was harassing and intimidating Kelly but his final attempt at subduing Kelly without lawful cause was completely unlawful.


    Also, after the beat down onto the ground by the two rogue cops with the batons, the video evidence clearly showed that he was reacting to terror of being attacked and to the subsequent pain of being savagely beaten, pummeled in the head and face and tased multiple time while being pinned down and crushed to his impending death by several rogue cops. The beat down and tasing not only was so severe but also the pummeling and tasing were relentlessly rained down blow after bow and tasing after tasing upon Kelly, who was already pinned down by several cops, without letting off a bit for him to even try to comply.

    Those videos I linked you to were to show you what true resisting looks like and how a lone police officer could handle an uncooperative person without having to beat him to a pulp till his life was squeezed out of him. And yet in many of those videos where some of the resisting were so violent to the point of endangering the lives of the police officers and civilians and still the police did not resort to violent beating to execute their final arrest. In most of those videos, the violent criminals were handcuffed without so much as a bruised or bloody face and still alive and walking.

    But, you don't want to hear or see any of that. All you want is to force your position to defend the rogue cops at all cost. All you're doing is to empower rogue cops to abuse their power against citizens who pay their wages and foment public resentment and repulsion of police officers that eventually put good officers' lives in danger.

    You keep hanging on your mantra of "Manufactured for television" but do you think they would manufacture a complete lie of the actual situation? Do you think it was not one cop who chased and knocked the suspect to the ground and then pinned him down before a civilian came to assist? Do you think you can convince us that National Geographic would edit an event based on true account into something totally different? It certainly wasn't six cops beating and tasing the guy to death while trying to subdue him, was it? If you think it was, then provide proof of such manufacturing. However, I had also provided you video links to other police cam videos of lone police officer arresting a violently resisting person without having to resort to brutal beating, tasing and pummeling to the head and face to a pulp. Why do you ignore those?

    Tell me, what does it serve to savagely pound the head and face repeatedly with the hard butt portion of the taser such that the bridge of the nose is smashed in and the ethmoid plate deep inside the skull was fractured not to mention causing broken ribs on both side of the chest if the goal was to subdue and handcuff him?

    What was the purpose of tasing Kelly multiple times in a row when he was already pinned down by several rogue cops to the ground if not simply for torturing him to death? Taser is mainly used for non-lethal self defense in order to neutralize a potential threat. The taser also render a person being tased to drop to the ground and thus enables the officer to subdue him for the arrest. But, in both situation Kelly posed no threat to the officers and he was already pinned to the ground.

    Also, don't you know that a taser can carry anywhere from 50,000 to 300,000 volts of electricity? The discharge of taser electric current into the body can cause involuntary muscle contractions and impairment of motor skills. By tasing Kelly multiple times in quick successions the rogue cops were actually causing him to involuntarily thrashed about in involuntary movement and rendered him unable to comply due to the impairment of motor function.

    Not to mention that he was cringing in severe pain the moment he was struck on both knees by the brutal force of the batons followed by severe beating, tasing, head and face pummeling, rib breaking crushing and the whole enchilada of tortures and beat down.

    Why don't you let me club you on both your knees and see if you can just lay there relaxed and comply to my command without me even jumping on top of you and beating and tasing you to a pulp? I bet you'd be thrashing about in pain just as you would if you were to knock your shin into a furniture. By thrashing in pain are you then resisting?

    You claimed that "every take down and resistance, is different in each and every case." Yeah, so what? The difference in the videos I linked to clearly showed that those being arrested by the lone officers had put up fierce fight and resistance and yet the lone officers were bale to subdue and handcuffed down without beating or tasing them to death. So, instead of acknowledging that the six rogue cops should be able to subdue and handcuff Kelly without having to brutally beat and tase him to death as shown by other harmless police take down shown in other video, you are coping out with an attempt at engaging in illogical argument.

    And as always, your debate tactic is to deny against clear and undenaible fact at all cost with a straight face. Officer Garcia in the video clearly tackled the man onto the ground and wrestled with him. He was pinned down and pretty much subdued and asked the man question as regard the gun before a civilian came on board to lend a hand.

    And like I said before, the facts don't agree with you. ONLY your twist and willful contortion of the facts agree with you. And still have the gall to deny that with a straight face.

    Unbelievable.
    Last edited by dolphinocean; 01-23-14 at 05:19 PM.

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Lol.....Someone else who knows everything about police/ policing without every having any first hand knowledge...and who has NEVER had to take into custody a violent, resisting, drug and alcohol-altered subject/EDP
    I have first hand knowledge. There are thug cops with severe psychological problems including those that lead to power-tripping violence against those who are weak.

    There certainly are plenty of videos online of exactly that too. Just like there are videos of good cops.

    Violent cops tend to focus on people they see as otherwise defenseless (poor, illegal foreign national etc).

    A person does not have to be or have been a police officer to evaluate the video of this incident.

    The man was guilty of nothing and suspected of nothing. A cop decided to get rough with and harass him because he didn't like the man's attitude. Although at no point had that man done anything illegal, he was beaten and crushed to death protractedly. The video speaks for itself.

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Those minutes reading, the above were, the longest minutes of my life that I can never use for something as useful as say......Sizing a tray of mis-matched ball bearings or picking lint out of my navel......

    Remember that SCOTUS says cops are allowed to using whatever force is objectively reasonable, given the totality of the circumstances - and it doesn't even have to be necessary force (actually shoot some dumb**** with a toy gun, as an example).

    Now, would you guys advocate that officers deviate from mandated policy in using force? Would you advocate that police agencies disobey the mandates of elected officials?

    Remember that we are not talking about harming the innocent. We are discussing using batons/tasers. etc to subdue an aggressive and resisting EDP

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Remember that we are not talking about harming the innocent. We are discussing using batons/tasers. etc to subdue an aggressive and resisting EDP
    I think one of, if not the, main point of contention in this thread is whether the (now dead) person in this specific case was actually resisting.

    Or at least it seems that way...
    Education.

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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The man was guilty of nothing and suspected of nothing. A cop decided to get rough with and harass him because he didn't like the man's attitude. Although at no point had that man done anything illegal, he was beaten and crushed to death protractedly. The video speaks for itself.
    Wrong on each count.
    He was suspected of attempted entry into parked cars. Which is why he was detained.
    He was suspected, as the Officer said, suspicion of a 496, because he had mail (property) which was not addressed to him.
    Which should address the ridiculous 'he was suspected of nothing' claim.

    As for the 'guilty of nothing' claim. It is bs as the above claim is.
    Kelly failed to comply, laid hands on an Officer, failed to follow the orders given, and resisted.
    That is doing something wrong.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    You are not even anywhere near marginally reasonable, Excon.

    What you are doing is twisting the fact and dismissing any presentation you can't handle in order to force them to fit your bias and firmly held opinion.

    Yeah, why don't you present videos showing a person not resisting but just standing there and take the clubbing of the police batons on each side of the knee by two rogue cops and then severely beaten, crushed, pummeled on the head and face and tased on the chest multiple times while already down on the ground? You've been crowing about showing the video, why don't you?

    If you do show a video of a person not resisting I can guarantee you that the police office executing the arrest was very professional and handled the situation without jumping into brutality at the very onset. I'd bet the officer would calmly tell the person he was under address and to ask him to turn around and place his hands on his back. None of such was done by Ramos. He went straight to screaming at Kelly to get on the ground soon after harassing and threatening to f**k him up with his gloved fist. At no time did he tell Kelly he was under arrest and for what purpose. As we all know Kelly was minding his own business and did nothing wrong that night. So, what you would be showing is how a professional handling of a lawful arrest should be like vs the brutal unlawful arrest and beat down without just cause.


    You keep saying Kelly was resisting arrest but you ignore the fact that nowhere at anytime in the video had Ramos ever told him he was under arrest
    .


    In fact, earlier Kelly did put out both his hands and asked Ramos to arrest him and get over with it because he was getting tired of being harassed for no reason. But Ramos refused and told him he wasn't done with him. So, not only Ramos was harassing and intimidating Kelly but his final attempt at subduing Kelly without lawful cause was completely unlawful.


    Also, after the beat down onto the ground by the two rogue cops with the batons, the video evidence clearly showed that he was reacting to terror of being attacked and to the subsequent pain of being savagely beaten, pummeled in the head and face and tased multiple time while being pinned down and crushed to his impending death by several rogue cops. The beat down and tasing not only was so severe but also the pummeling and tasing were relentlessly rained down blow after bow and tasing after tasing upon Kelly, who was already pinned down by several cops, without letting off a bit for him to even try to comply.

    Those videos I linked you to were to show you what true resisting looks like and how a lone police officer could handle an uncooperative person without having to beat him to a pulp till his life was squeezed out of him. And yet in many of those videos where some of the resisting were so violent to the point of endangering the lives of the police officers and civilians and still the police did not resort to violent beating to execute their final arrest. In most of those videos, the violent criminals were handcuffed without so much as a bruised or bloody face and still alive and walking.

    But, you don't want to hear or see any of that. All you want is to force your position to defend the rogue cops at all cost. All you're doing is to empower rogue cops to abuse their power against citizens who pay their wages and foment public resentment and repulsion of police officers that eventually put good officers' lives in danger.

    You keep hanging on your mantra of "Manufactured for television" but do you think they would manufacture a complete lie of the actual situation? Do you think it was not one cop who chased and knocked the suspect to the ground and then pinned him down before a civilian came to assist? Do you think you can convince us that National Geographic would edit an event based on true account into something totally different? It certainly wasn't six cops beating and tasing the guy to death while trying to subdue him, was it? If you think it was, then provide proof of such manufacturing. However, I had also provided you video links to other police cam videos of lone police officer arresting a violently resisting person without having to resort to brutal beating, tasing and pummeling to the head and face to a pulp. Why do you ignore those?

    Tell me, what does it serve to savagely pound the head and face repeatedly with the hard butt portion of the taser such that the bridge of the nose is smashed in and the ethmoid plate deep inside the skull was fractured not to mention causing broken ribs on both side of the chest if the goal was to subdue and handcuff him?

    What was the purpose of tasing Kelly multiple times in a row when he was already pinned down by several rogue cops to the ground if not simply for torturing him to death? Taser is mainly used for non-lethal self defense in order to neutralize a potential threat. The taser also render a person being tased to drop to the ground and thus enables the officer to subdue him for the arrest. But, in both situation Kelly posed no threat to the officers and he was already pinned to the ground.

    Also, don't you know that a taser can carry anywhere from 50,000 to 300,000 volts of electricity? The discharge of taser electric current into the body can cause involuntary muscle contractions and impairment of motor skills. By tasing Kelly multiple times in quick successions the rogue cops were actually causing him to involuntarily thrashed about in involuntary movement and rendered him unable to comply due to the impairment of motor function.

    Not to mention that he was cringing in severe pain the moment he was struck on both knees by the brutal force of the batons followed by severe beating, tasing, head and face pummeling, rib breaking crushing and the whole enchilada of tortures and beat down.

    Why don't you let me club you on both your knees and see if you can just lay there relaxed and comply to my command without me even jumping on top of you and beating and tasing you to a pulp? I bet you'd be thrashing about in pain just as you would if you were to knock your shin into a furniture. By thrashing in pain are you then resisting?

    You claimed that "every take down and resistance, is different in each and every case." Yeah, so what? The difference in the videos I linked to clearly showed that those being arrested by the lone officers had put up fierce fight and resistance and yet the lone officers were bale to subdue and handcuffed down without beating or tasing them to death. So, instead of acknowledging that the six rogue cops should be able to subdue and handcuff Kelly without having to brutally beat and tase him to death as shown by other harmless police take down shown in other video, you are coping out with an attempt at engaging in illogical argument.

    And as always, your debate tactic is to deny against clear and undenaible fact at all cost with a straight face. Officer Garcia in the video clearly tackled the man onto the ground and wrestled with him. He was pinned down and pretty much subdued and asked the man question as regard the gun before a civilian came on board to lend a hand.

    And like I said before, the facts don't agree with you. ONLY your twist and willful contortion of the facts agree with you. And still have the gall to deny that with a straight face.

    Unbelievable.
    All that to say absolutely nothing. Figures.
    But let me address it to place it proper perspective as idiotic nonsense.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I think one of, if not the, main point of contention in this thread is whether the (now dead) person in this specific case was actually resisting.

    Or at least it seems that way...
    It shouldn't be, as he can be seen to be resisting. That should be sufficient to understand what was happening. But some folks wish to ignore that.
    The Officers can even be heard telling him to stop resisting and saying he was still fighting.

    But some folks do not want to be objective about that.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Police not guilty in Kelly Thomas death; DA won't try 3rd officer

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    You are not even anywhere near marginally reasonable, Excon.
    Said the unreasonable person. Figures.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    What you are doing is twisting the fact and dismissing any presentation you can't handle in order to force them to fit your bias and firmly held opinion.
    I haven't twisted anything.
    Kelly resisted.
    You saying he wasn't, is twisting. Next.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Yeah, why don't you present videos showing a person not resisting but just standing there and take the clubbing of the police batons on each side of the knee by two rogue cops and then severely beaten, crushed, pummeled on the head and face and tased on the chest multiple times while already down on the ground? You've been crowing about showing the video, why don't you?
    As I already told you, providing such videos as you have in nonsense. We know what not resisting looks like. Kelly was resisting.
    Besides that though, you seem to be confused as to what I said I could provide. Just standing there and taking a beating? WTF? I never said anything of the sort.
    Just another example of you twisting.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    If you do show a video of a person not resisting I can guarantee you that the police office executing the arrest was very professional and handled the situation without jumping into brutality at the very onset. I'd bet the officer would calmly tell the person he was under address and to ask him to turn around and place his hands on his back. None of such was done by Ramos. He went straight to screaming at Kelly to get on the ground soon after harassing and threatening to f**k him up with his gloved fist. At no time did he tell Kelly he was under arrest and for what purpose. As we all know Kelly was minding his own business and did nothing wrong that night. So, what you would be showing is how a professional handling of a lawful arrest should be like vs the brutal unlawful arrest and beat down without just cause.
    You can not guarantee anything. So can it.
    And your take of what happened is further spin.
    He didn't go straight to screaming. That is nothing but spin on your part.
    Kelly had already been non-cooperative and continued his game when given instructions.
    Kelly escalated the situation by not cooperating.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    You keep saying Kelly was resisting arrest but you ignore the fact that nowhere at anytime in the video had Ramos ever told him he was under arrest.
    I keep saying this matters not. Do you really not understand that?
    Do you really think an Officer has to tell you he is arresting you before actually arresting you?


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    In fact, earlier Kelly did put out both his hands and asked Ramos to arrest him and get over with it because he was getting tired of being harassed for no reason. But Ramos refused and told him he wasn't done with him. So, not only Ramos was harassing and intimidating Kelly but his final attempt at subduing Kelly without lawful cause was completely unlawful.
    Matters not.
    Why you think this matters is beyond comprehension.
    And the rest is just your usual bs spin. Responding to a report on Kelly is not harassing him. Reacting to Kelly's actions was lawful.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Also, after the beat down onto the ground by the two rogue cops with the batons, the video evidence clearly showed that he was reacting to terror of being attacked and to the subsequent pain of being savagely beaten, pummeled in the head and face and tased multiple time while being pinned down and crushed to his impending death by several rogue cops. The beat down and tasing not only was so severe but also the pummeling and tasing were relentlessly rained down blow after bow and tasing after tasing upon Kelly, who was already pinned down by several cops, without letting off a bit for him to even try to comply.
    More absurdity. There were no rouge cops here. That is just your spin.
    And no Kelly was not terrified at the beginning. He was non-cooperative from the get and escalated it to the point of failing to comply, resisting, and fleeing. He did not attempt to flee because he was scared or terrified. He even attempted to bait the Officer into hitting him. That is not being scared or terrified. So can the bs.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Those videos I linked you to were to show you what true resisting looks like and how a lone police officer could handle an uncooperative person without having to beat him to a pulp till his life was squeezed out of him. And yet in many of those videos where some of the resisting were so violent to the point of endangering the lives of the police officers and civilians and still the police did not resort to violent beating to execute their final arrest. In most of those videos, the violent criminals were handcuffed without so much as a bruised or bloody face and still alive and walking.
    Your videos are meaningless.
    They do not show Kelly. Or the reality of his arrest and resistance.
    They are meaningless to that.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    But, you don't want to hear or see any of that. All you want is to force your position to defend the rogue cops at all cost. All you're doing is to empower rogue cops to abuse their power against citizens who pay their wages and foment public resentment and repulsion of police officers that eventually put good officers' lives in danger.
    More idiotic spin. There was no rouge cops.
    These were Officers doing their jobs. Nothing more than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    You keep hanging on your mantra of "Manufactured for television" but do you think they would manufacture a complete lie of the actual situation? Do you think it was not one cop who chased and knocked the suspect to the ground and then pinned him down before a civilian came to assist? Do you think you can convince us that National Geographic would edit an event based on true account into something totally different? It certainly wasn't six cops beating and tasing the guy to death while trying to subdue him, was it? If you think it was, then provide proof of such manufacturing. However, I had also provided you video links to other police cam videos of lone police officer arresting a violently resisting person without having to resort to brutal beating, tasing and pummeling to the head and face to a pulp. Why do you ignore those?
    Do you really not understand that the video is meaningless to this case.
    Why you continually harp on a meaningless video is beyond comprehension.
    It is irrelevant.
    And get a clue. You can not say a video created for tv, as in edited to show what they want it to show, is an accurate representation.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Tell me, what does it serve to savagely pound the head and face repeatedly with the hard butt portion of the taser such that the bridge of the nose is smashed in and the ethmoid plate deep inside the skull was fractured not to mention causing broken ribs on both side of the chest if the goal was to subdue and handcuff him?
    It serves to subdue him
    Officers are allowed to use force in subduing a person, and with Kelly's resistance being so great, as testified to, the Officers thought they were out of options.
    And after tasering Kelly multiple times with no effect, it is no wonder that they thought that.


    Cont. Below.
    Last edited by Excon; 01-23-14 at 10:22 PM.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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