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Thread: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim[W:88]

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    What you stated is the big difference in how people saw it. A lot of Republicans saw it as you stated, a case of perjury, but the majority of Americans did not. They saw it as a witch hunt in which one party was trying to dispose a sitting president of another party. Clinton's rise in popularity clearly shows this.

    At the time there was bipartisan support for a censure, IMO opinion a censure is what was needed, not an impeachment trial. The republicans really over reached. They were left with egg on their face. Most Americans looked at this attempt as trying to get rid of a sitting president over a sexual exploit. Not perjury. But even if it was perjury, does that qualify as a high crime or high misdemeanor to dispose of a sitting president? But that was not how it was framed for most Americans. Is lying under oath over a BJ or the definition of a BJ as having a sexual relation or not, is that an impeachable offense?

    A overwhelming majority of Americans say no. 15 years later history definitely shows the Republicans way over reached. But if the republicans were right or wrong to bring impeachment articles against Clinton, I do not think history has decided yet. But it does seem to be trending against the Republicans. You should have went with a censure, it would have passed.
    Clinton was disbarred for his perjury. The question he lied about may well have been about his sexual relations with an intern, however, there is nothing that I know of in the oath that allows certain lies, while others are off limits is there?

    You want to frame it as though this thing was over the act of Clinton and Lewenski, when in reality it was about a sitting President lying to a federal Judge.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    He had astroturf in the back of his El Camino, bet you never had that kind of class.
    Just like a bunch of good old other southern boys.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    No, what I presented is how the majority of the American people looked at. When it comes to politics, perspective can be much more important than reality. To you it was about perjury, to the majority of Americans it wasn't. With me, hindsight lets me know Clinton was a darn good president, but at the time I didn't think so. I too do not want Hillary to be president, but I didn't want either Romney or Obama to win in 2012 either.

    As for the recess appointments, I think it will boil down to whether a pro forma session is considered a real session. Is the senate in session or not. It is not conducting business, it is just meeting every couple to a few days to gavel it in session and then to recess. I think it is really a moot point now since Reid used the nuclear option. A minority party can't stop any appointments for what ever reason whether the senate is in recess or not.

    The exception would be if the senate was in the hands of one party and the president was of the other party, then even the nuclear option would mean anything. So in this aspect whatever the SCOTUS decides could come into play. But as long as the president and the senate control is in the hands of the same party, recess appointments now mean nothing.
    Congratulations on your appointment as the spokesperson for the majority of Americans. In my opinion, when one branch (or House) is in lockstep with another (the President), on every issue, no good comes from it. If the branches can't be in agreement on something, then whatever they are trying to do probably shouldn't be done.

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Clinton was disbarred for his perjury. The question he lied about may well have been about his sexual relations with an intern, however, there is nothing that I know of in the oath that allows certain lies, while others are off limits is there?

    You want to frame it as though this thing was over the act of Clinton and Lewenski, when in reality it was about a sitting President lying to a federal Judge.
    Everyone wants to use the term I want to frame it. I framed it though the historical reference of how the majority of Americans saw it. I have no doubt Republicans believed it was all about perjury, but most other Americans didn't think so. It looked like an attempt to bring down a sitting president, a duly elected president which would amount to upturning an election result.

    So the question was and it still seems to be, was perjury an impeachable offense? But in the minds of most Americans it was more than just simple question. If Clinton had lied or perjured himself over something major, say an abuse of governmental power, lied trying to cover up some governmental scandal, something to do with his job as president, things along this line bringing impeachment proceedings may have been warranted. But he perjured himself by denying a sexual relation with Lewinski. Nothing to do with his job as president. So in most peoples mind they drew a difference.

    That difference may not be there in the law, you either perjured or you didn't, subject doesn't matter. But with the majority of Americans the subject matter did matter. There may be no degrees in perjury in the legal sense, but there was in the peoples mind. So was perjury over a sexual matter an impeachable offense? Most Americans thought not and so to did the senate.

    Now if that perjury had occurred over the illegal use of government power, with the miss use of taxpayer monies, a whole lot of things dealing with government and his job, the American people probably would have been behind the impeachment process. But not over a BJ, whether he lied about it or not.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Full transcript of the arguments, for anyone who wants to know.

    http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...-1281_d1o2.pdf

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Everyone wants to use the term I want to frame it. I framed it though the historical reference of how the majority of Americans saw it. I have no doubt Republicans believed it was all about perjury, but most other Americans didn't think so. It looked like an attempt to bring down a sitting president, a duly elected president which would amount to upturning an election result.

    So the question was and it still seems to be, was perjury an impeachable offense? But in the minds of most Americans it was more than just simple question. If Clinton had lied or perjured himself over something major, say an abuse of governmental power, lied trying to cover up some governmental scandal, something to do with his job as president, things along this line bringing impeachment proceedings may have been warranted. But he perjured himself by denying a sexual relation with Lewinski. Nothing to do with his job as president. So in most peoples mind they drew a difference.

    That difference may not be there in the law, you either perjured or you didn't, subject doesn't matter. But with the majority of Americans the subject matter did matter. There may be no degrees in perjury in the legal sense, but there was in the peoples mind. So was perjury over a sexual matter an impeachable offense? Most Americans thought not and so to did the senate.

    Now if that perjury had occurred over the illegal use of government power, with the miss use of taxpayer monies, a whole lot of things dealing with government and his job, the American people probably would have been behind the impeachment process. But not over a BJ, whether he lied about it or not.
    Can you show me where in the law there are distinctions as to levels of perjury? What the people thought, has little bearing on what the law is.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Congratulations on your appointment as the spokesperson for the majority of Americans. In my opinion, when one branch (or House) is in lockstep with another (the President), on every issue, no good comes from it. If the branches can't be in agreement on something, then whatever they are trying to do probably shouldn't be done.
    No, not a spokesman for the American people. Just passing on what I read, heard and experienced at the time. For me, I view the impeachment of Bill Clinton sort of as a power play for the Republicans. A big over reach on their part. But apparently you do not, but that is politics. It just seems back then there were far more people who viewed the process in my terms than yours. Does that make it right or make either own of us wrong. Not in our minds it does not. You thought it was the right thing to do, I thought of it as a vast over reach. In the end it seems most Americans thought as I. But that doesn't make that thought right or wrong, just the prevailing thought of the time.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    No, not a spokesman for the American people. Just passing on what I read, heard and experienced at the time. For me, I view the impeachment of Bill Clinton sort of as a power play for the Republicans. A big over reach on their part. But apparently you do not, but that is politics. It just seems back then there were far more people who viewed the process in my terms than yours. Does that make it right or make either own of us wrong. Not in our minds it does not. You thought it was the right thing to do, I thought of it as a vast over reach. In the end it seems most Americans thought as I. But that doesn't make that thought right or wrong, just the prevailing thought of the time.
    You think that bolded part is true just because you say it?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Can you show me where in the law there are distinctions as to levels of perjury? What the people thought, has little bearing on what the law is.
    You're right. But what exactly did you accomplish outside of perhaps embarrassing Clinton a little. When it comes to a president and overturning a legal election, one better have their ducks in order. Yes, Clinton committed a crime with perjury. So then the question becomes was that crime serious enough to warrant impeachment and throwing a sitting president out of office. To you apparently it was yes and to quite a lot of other Republicans. To most Americans it wasn't.

    An attempt to over turn an election and throw a sitting president is very serious stuff. Not only do you have to have a legal, constitutional reason for doing it, the American people must understand the basis for it. In the end, it was decided Clinton's crime of perjury was not enough to over turn an election. It didn't meet the constitutional requirements of high crimes. It is that simple.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Justices skeptical of Obama’s recess appointment claim

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    You're right. But what exactly did you accomplish outside of perhaps embarrassing Clinton a little. When it comes to a president and overturning a legal election, one better have their ducks in order. Yes, Clinton committed a crime with perjury. So then the question becomes was that crime serious enough to warrant impeachment and throwing a sitting president out of office. To you apparently it was yes and to quite a lot of other Republicans. To most Americans it wasn't.

    An attempt to over turn an election and throw a sitting president is very serious stuff. Not only do you have to have a legal, constitutional reason for doing it, the American people must understand the basis for it. In the end, it was decided Clinton's crime of perjury was not enough to over turn an election. It didn't meet the constitutional requirements of high crimes. It is that simple.
    If I recall correctly, Senator Byrd [RIP] felt much the same way. He basically stated that while he felt the charges were very serious, he didn't want to be on record as voting to impeach a President. Would he have felt the same way if it were a Republican President? Who knows? I would like to think so.

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