• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

You seem intent on offering no refute, just your opinion.

I directly addressed numerous aspects of your rant, pointing out it was based on faulty assumptions and various other logical fallacies

The Soviets did promote the concept of women to be educated, part of the work force and government.

And? What does that have to do with the point about backwards Afghan cultural practices and your attempt to defend and justify them? Right, nothing


They did insist on the end of religious rule in courts and government. St. Reagan did refer to the 'freedom fighters' many well known to be extreme religious warriors, as the Aghan Founding fathers. The CON praisees are in the book CONs love to trump- "Charlie Wilson's War'.

1) Don't get your history from a movie. The truth is, outside urban centers there was very little support for a powerful centralized govt and a reistence formed organically long before any involvement from Washington

2) Why would I need to answer for or justify what Ronald Reagan said and did? Especially in the context of you trying to justify brutal cultural behaviors by appealing to some form of perceived ingrained and inescapable expression of nature?


The us vs them metric is the CON template for everything... they don't act or think like we do so they are inferior.

No, any culture that thinks it's cool to stone a rape victim to death is indeed inferior on the point of women's rights, to cultures that do not behave in such a manner.

Why would you see such a statement as controversial?

No Sir, it is a matter of degree, we accept the honor killings in this country, the forced marriages, the violence because we have a law against it.

That doesn't even make sense


That sometimes these laws are ignored such as the KKK murders of 'uppity' blacks or 'meddlesome' yankees is shrugged off as 'the past'.

Yes, because short of isolated pockets that we would attempt to address through higher state authority, such is clearly viewed as unacceptable in a modern context. Which means we have moved on and corrected that inferior behavior


While we don't let a dad go scot-free for killing the rapist who defiled his daughter,(many CONS would do just that), we do allow mitigation and tend to not judge the dad as a cold blooded murderer.

Wait, so a dad killing his daughters rapist is analogous to killing his daughter for being raped?

Again, you should really think these things through


But you continue down the 'white man's folly' road. You blame the 'inferior' culture for our failures, rather than our own hubris and folly

Yes, if you mean assuming that brown people can overcome historical cultural trappings, like anyone else. I am indeed guilty
 
Last edited:
The Nazis felt their cause was justified. Are you going to defemd them, as well?

I am not defending anyone.. Just pointing out the blaring hypocrisy of Americans attitudes to terrorism. You hate the Afghans but you won't hate yourself for the decades of supporting terrorist.

Terrorism is another word for Guerrilla warfare. Its tactic in which is useful when outnumbered or highly out powered. So much so we train our best of our best in this ability. Then we send our best of our best to foreign countries to train others be it NGOs or States. Fact of the matter is Americans love terrorism, they are just too stupid to realize it. You love the United States? Well, it's around because it used Guerrilla warfare/terror tactics against the British. You love Israel? Well.. google the King David Hotel bombing or Deir Yassin massacre. The group responsible became the Likud party.

So, let's carpet bomb the US, Israel with everyone else.. as we support ourselves and each other.
 
Last edited:
I directly addressed numerous aspects of your rant, pointing out it was based on faulty assumptions and various other logical fallacies



And? What does that have to do with the point about backwards Afghan cultural practices and your attempt to defend and justify them? Right, nothing




1) Don't get your history from a movie. The truth is, outside urban centers there was very little support for a powerful centralized govt and a reistence formed organically long before any involvement from Washington

2) Why would I need to answer for or justify what Ronald Reagan said and did? Especially in the context of you trying to justify brutal cultural behaviors by appealing to some form of perceived ingrained and inescapable expression of nature?




No, any culture that thinks it's cool to stone a rape victim to death is indeed inferior on the point of women's rights, to cultures that do not behave in such a manner.

Why would you see such a statement as controversial?



That doesn't even make sense




Yes, because short of isolated pockets that we would attempt to address through higher state authority, such is clearly viewed as unacceptable in a modern context.

If the distinction that creates to acceptance in a modern and mainstream context confuses you, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the term "genetic fallacy". But it should be self evident



Wait, so a dad killing his daughters rapist is analogous to killing his daughter for being raped?

Again, you should really think these things through




Yes, if you mean assuming that brown people can overcome historical cultural trappings, like anyone else. I am indeed guilty

I don't think Afghan culture is backwards, radical Islam is backwards...

Honestly, these non-radical simple living folk in Afghanistan hate the extremist Muslim faction just as much as we do, but at the same time they don't want us in their backyard.

Once again radical Islam can be to blame for all this conflict over the past 1500 years.
 
And you always use the sad worn out CON game- where did I 'defend' any of the crap you rant about? typical CON deflection.

Fact is CONs could give a flying flip about ANY of that- it is just an excuse to degrade another culture that refuses to accept outsider interference. Did we go into the Middle or South East to 'defend' women's rights???

the 'inferior' culture was quite progressive until Westerners tried the latest go-round of 'civilizing' Afghanistan. the forced attempt to push 'equal rights' for women and the abolishing of religious laws by the Soviet created a backlash we are fighting today. back when these religious kooks fought the Soviets they were likened to our Founding Fathers by no less than St. Reagan. now of course they are in power and degraded as 'inferior'. :roll:

If you want to talk about FMG let's talk about our allies, the ones we embrace as 'good' Muslims. The Kurds in Iraq practice FGM and we don't trash them as 'inferior'. Honor killings??? Hell we do that here, and have you ever heard the term 'shotgun' marriage? You argue in degrees and with blinders firmly on.

I do enjoy some CONs 'defending' women while some others demand THEY get to decide many female reproductive issues. :roll:

Embrace the woman's rights to work in other nations but hold a nomination convention where that Right wing is mute and CON women are saluted for raising kids.

No Sir, what we don't like about their society is based on our rather capricious standards. We see their faults quite clearly but seem to ignore our own, from free and easy drugs to incredible rates of unwed teen moms, a culture that puts sex scandal women on a pedestal-make a sex tape and be famous. We attack their forms of government as corrupt but can we really look at our governments and power brokers in any better light?

What matters isn't their culture, as we have lost the hearts and minds of so many different cultures. No Sir, it is first and foremost does that culture even want our 'help', do they have a history of accepting such 'help'. Next is do we understand sometimes there is no 'good guy' to back, and all we or the Soviets did was stir the pot.

As long as we continue to make excuses for why we don't prevail and blame 'their culture' instead of our folly we are destined to repeat this hot mess over and over.

Accuse me of defending female mutilations, what a CON strawman.... :roll:

I am not one of these mythical "cons" you rail against so thoughtlessly, so spare me, please.


Any actual liberal (of which you are most obviously NOT) realizes the deplorable state of women in Afghanistan and does not blame us for their culture. I cannot believe the utter stupidity of a statement that tries to portray their culture as "progressive" before we intervened there. Really, that is so far beyond the pale as to be the stuff of intentional parody it is that incredibly stupid.
 
Islam is the enemy of all people who are not followers of Islam.

Islam is not the enemy of me. I fear the man despite his religion who has nothing to lose. That means be it a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, and Orthodox man is only dangerous when they feel they have nothing to lose. That's what makes them dangerous.
 
I am not one of these mythical "cons" you rail against so thoughtlessly, so spare me, please.


Any actual liberal (of which you are most obviously NOT) realizes the deplorable state of women in Afghanistan and does not blame us for their culture. I cannot believe the utter stupidity of a statement that tries to portray their culture as "progressive" before we intervened there. Really, that is so far beyond the pale as to be the stuff of intentional parody it is that incredibly stupid.

Deplorable state of woman in Afghanistan?

Sure Afghanistan isn't up to par with womans rights but they are far from the worst. Saudi Arabia, Egypt (hell, many countries in Africa), Iraq (or just about any nation where Islam is the face of the nation) are worse.

Go read about the school bus problem in Saudi Arabia - they can't get girls to school because woman cant drive, and men and woman have to be segregated - therefore little girls cant get to school.
 
Islam is not the enemy of me. I fear the man despite his religion who has nothing to lose. That means be it a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, and Orthodox man is only dangerous when they feel they have nothing to lose. That's what makes them dangerous.

Radical Islam should be the enemy to you.

The problem with Islam is that many nations are into Sharia theocracies...... Imagine if the US became an evangelical Christian theocracy? I wouldn't want that and I'm a practicing Christian.
 
Radical Islam should be the enemy to you.

The problem with Islam is that many nations are into Sharia theocracies...... Imagine if the US became an evangelical Christian theocracy? I wouldn't want that and I'm a practicing Christian.

Radical Islam is not my problem. Is it in the US? Nope. Will it ever be? Nope. So it's number 1,000,000,000,000 on my list of worries. Countries with Islam as their religion, that's their problem not mine or yours.

US isn't evangelical Christan theocracy..yet. But 30% or so want Christianity as the official religion. So maybe that's what we should be worried about and not the Radical Islam bunch who are light years away from any political power in the US.
 
Last edited:
Radical Islam is not my problem. Is it in the US? Nope. Will it ever be? Nope. So it's number 1,000,000,000,000 on my list of worries. Countries with Islam as their religion, that's their problem not mine or yours.

US isn't evangelical Christan theocracy..yet. But 30% or so want Christianity as the official religion. So maybe that's what we should be worried about and not the Radical Islam bunch who light years away from any political power in the US.

I don't give a **** if 30% want it as an "official religion" considering that only violates the First Amendment. Not only that but I HIGHLY doubt those numbers considering they come from the lying POS HUFFO.

Also, you better believe radical Islam is in our backyard.... Most of the idiots who plot these Islamic attacks on the US ARE US BORN ISLAMIC RADICALS.....

Not only that but we have "honor killings" here in the US - I know the progressive media has no desire to report them but they happen way more frequently than what is reported by the media.
 
I am not defending anyone.. Just pointing out the blaring hypocrisy of Americans attitudes to terrorism. You hate the Afghans but you won't hate yourself for the decades of supporting terrorist.


You're defending terrorism, right there; or at least, justifying it.

Terrorism is another word for Guerrilla warfare.

Terrorism and guerilla warfare are different. Terrorism, is sometimes a component of guerilla warfare, however.

Its tactic in which is useful when outnumbered or highly out powered. So much so we train our best of our best in this ability. Then we send our best of our best to foreign countries to train others be it NGOs or States.

No, we don't train NGO's, nor states in guerilla warfare. We train our special operations units in guerilla warfare, so we can counter guerillas that we're engaged with and to harass conventional enemy forces. Those special operations units are combat multipliers; they don't win the war.


Fact of the matter is Americans love terrorism, they are just too stupid to realize it.

Ahh! I wondered when the America hatin' would show up.

BTW, you're welcome for not living under a Nazi dictatorship. But, then that may not be so good, since the Austrians welcomed the Nazis with open arms.


You love the United States? Well, it's around because it used Guerrilla warfare/terror tactics against the British. You love Israel? Well.. google the King David Hotel bombing or Deir Yassin massacre. The group responsible became the Likud party.

Actually, you're wrong. The Colonials defeated the Brits with conventional tactics and strategy. Guerilla warfare played a very small part of the The American Revolution. The same can be said for Israel.

So, let's carpet bomb the US, Israel with everyone else.. as we support ourselves and each other.

The United States has produced the best and brightest soldiers in the history of the world. Austria wouldn't last a week. Might be a worthwhile venture, since there are probably plenty of ex-Nazis in Austria that need killin'.
 
Deplorable state of woman in Afghanistan?

Sure Afghanistan isn't up to par with womans rights but they are far from the worst. Saudi Arabia, Egypt (hell, many countries in Africa), Iraq (or just about any nation where Islam is the face of the nation) are worse.

Go read about the school bus problem in Saudi Arabia - they can't get girls to school because woman cant drive, and men and woman have to be segregated - therefore little girls cant get to school.

how does that work to justify anything in Afghanistan?
 
I don't give a **** if 30% want it as an "official religion" considering that only violates the First Amendment. Not only that but I HIGHLY doubt those numbers considering they come from the lying POS HUFFO.

Also, you better believe radical Islam is in our backyard.... Most of the idiots who plot these Islamic attacks on the US ARE US BORN ISLAMIC RADICALS.....

Not only that but we have "honor killings" here in the US - I know the progressive media has no desire to report them but they happen way more frequently than what is reported by the media.

Those numbers were done by a polling company, YouGov Omnibus. YouGov is pretty damn accurate. If you actually read the article, 32% of American want to change the Constitution, so bye bye 1st Amendment. It can happen and happened before.. member that no booze thing we did?

So what if they are US born? They don't live here now and the fact we known about them means they can't hide it. So it's either you accept the reality that NSA spying on everyone and their grandmother is working or it's not. If it's not then worry, if its then don't worry. I could careless.

Again, how about you address the political power Radical Islam doesn't have? Honor killings happen and those who committed it go to jail.. That's not some massive omg, we are gonna be Muslim tomorrow or dead.
 
Those numbers were done by a polling company, YouGov Omnibus. YouGov is pretty damn accurate. If you actually read the article, 32% of American want to change the Constitution, so bye bye 1st Amendment. It can happen and happened before.. member that no booze thing we did?

So what if they are US born? They don't live here now and the fact we known about them means they can't hide it. So it's either you accept the reality that NSA spying on everyone and their grandmother is working or it's not. If it's not then worry, if its then don't worry. I could careless.

Again, how about you address the political power Radical Islam doesn't have? Honor killings happen and those who committed it go to jail.. That's not some massive omg, we are gonna be Muslim tomorrow or dead.

Polls are bull****... It's quite easy to target, or to take a poll in a specific leaning community then portray the results as "Americas voice."

Furthermore "official religion" can have many meanings... Are we talking about a House Resolution or Billy Graham as president?

The simple fact that anyone would believe that 30% of Christians would want a theocracy is insane considering 90% of my large family (150 of us) are Christian and not a single one has ever attempted to argue for a theocracy.

Of course people want to change or amend the Constitution/Bill of Rights - progressives would love to burn it... I'm not going to argue with that.
 
Last edited:
"It's what happens" nice. Would you feel comfortable repeating that very calloused statement to the families of the 18,000 dead Afghan civilians as a result of US military operations there? Americans don't understand the nuances of war, particularly protracted war like this. Americans just thought we were going to go to Afghanistan and kill the Taliban and or al Qaeda that was behind the 9/11 attacks, and thus supported the action.

it happens is referring to them picking up our culture.
 
it happens is referring to them picking up our culture.

That's the problem I have - they don't need our culture - they just need less Islamic Sharia...

The problem is that these Sharia lunatics are trying to force THEIR culture on us via terrorism.

The only reason why they're doing it is to self fulfill prophecy as outlined in the Qur'an.
 
Polls are bull****... It's quite easy to target, or to take a poll in a specific leaning community then portray the results as "Americas voice."

Furthermore "official religion" can have many meanings... Are we talking about a House Resolution or Billy Graham as president?

The simple fact that anyone would believe that 30% of Christians would want a theocracy is insane considering 90% of my large family (150 of us) are Christian and not a single one has ever attempted to argue for a theocracy.

Of course people want to change or amend the Constitution/Bill of Rights - progressives would love to burn it... I'm not going to argue with that.

Again, they want to change the US Constitution to recognize the US as a Christian nation. Hence... theocracy. Well, Rick Santorum is as bad as it gets.
 
You're defending terrorism, right there; or at least, justifying it.

And I have absolutely no problem with terrorism. Did you fail to understand that? It's a tactic.



Terrorism and guerilla warfare are different. Terrorism, is sometimes a component of guerilla warfare, however.

No, they aren't.. they are the same thing. The point of guerrilla warfare is to strike terror into the "enemy". Terrorism is the same thing. The whole point of both is to make one feel terror.

No, we don't train NGO's, nor states in guerilla warfare. We train our special operations units in guerilla warfare, so we can counter guerillas that we're engaged with and to harass conventional enemy forces. Those special operations units are combat multipliers; they don't win the war.

Yes, we do. We run School of the Americas (known as WHINSEC) at Ft. Benning. Lot of famous dictators and "terrorist" US trained. Groups (including Delta) routinely trained during the 70's, 80's and 90's in Colombia and other South American countries. Hell, the Phoenix Program during Vietnam is a prime example of it. I never said they win wars. I said they trained and committed acts of terrorism, which they have.




Ahh! I wondered when the America hatin' would show up.

BTW, you're welcome for not living under a Nazi dictatorship. But, then that may not be so good, since the Austrians welcomed the Nazis with open arms.

Dude, you just proved my point. Austrianecon is Austrian Economics. I don't live in Austria and I am actually a US citizen. So try harder. ;)


Actually, you're wrong. The Colonials defeated the Brits with conventional tactics and strategy. Guerilla warfare played a very small part of the The American Revolution. The same can be said for Israel.

LMFAO. Francis Marion, David Wooster, William Richardson, and Daniel Morgan. The kept the British busy in the South so Washington could move in the North. Hell, American tactics during the war was to to send the militia out to harass the British for periods and once the British were stretched, on then conventional attacks would happen.

Small part for Israel? Israelis groups such as Lehi, Haganah and Irgun bombed buildings, sent mail bombs, massacred Muslims and did everything the IRA still does. Hell, Lehi even offered Nazi Germany support if they ousted the British from Palestine. Israel exists because the British got fed up with fighting two sides.


The United States has produced the best and brightest soldiers in the history of the world. Austria wouldn't last a week. Might be a worthwhile venture, since there are probably plenty of ex-Nazis in Austria that need killin'.

Seriously? You love stroking your epeen? I am not Austrian you fool. Look at the words I use. I've said we and us several times in this topic.
 
Again, they want to change the US Constitution to recognize the US as a Christian nation. Hence... theocracy. Well, Rick Santorum is as bad as it gets.

You're not proving anything - you're using the word "they" for ****s sake, then citing a poll the Huffo used.

You're just manufacturing propaganda the non-Christian progressive masses love.

Even if what you claim is even remotely true, I would bet my life progressives would rather have a Sharia theocracy than a Christian theocracy, just because progressives are sympathetic to brown people or people darker than they are... Their religion doesn't matter - their skin shade does.

Also, you could bet your ass if there was ever a "Christian coupe" (lol) I would certainly fight against it and defend the Bill of Rights.
 
And I have absolutely no problem with terrorism. Did you fail to understand that? It's a tactic.

It's also a crime.


No, they aren't.. they are the same thing. The point of guerrilla warfare is to strike terror into the "enemy". Terrorism is the same thing. The whole point of both is to make one feel terror.

You're wrong.



Yes, we do. We run School of the Americas (known as WHINSEC) at Ft. Benning. Lot of famous dictators and "terrorist" US trained. Groups (including Delta) routinely trained during the 70's, 80's and 90's in Colombia and other South American countries. Hell, the Phoenix Program during Vietnam is a prime example of it. I never said they win wars. I said they trained and committed acts of terrorism, which they have.

A prime example of a combat multiplier, as I pointed out earlier.






Dude, you just proved my point. Austrianecon is Austrian Economics. I don't live in Austria and I am actually a US citizen. So try harder. ;)

Oh! My bad! You're an American that hates America, not an Austrian that hates America.




LMFAO. Francis Marion, David Wooster, William Richardson, and Daniel Morgan. The kept the British busy in the South so Washington could move in the North. Hell, American tactics during the war was to to send the militia out to harass the British for periods and once the British were stretched, on then conventional attacks would happen.

They were combat multipliers and performed a very small role in the overall war.

Small part for Israel? Israelis groups such as Lehi, Haganah and Irgun bombed buildings, sent mail bombs, massacred Muslims and did everything the IRA still does. Hell, Lehi even offered Nazi Germany support if they ousted the British from Palestine. Israel exists because the British got fed up with fighting two sides.

I bet you left out some very important facts in that one...LOL!!! Ever hear of the '48 War? 6-Day War? Yom Kippur War? Those were all conventional engagements.

Guerilla tactics don't decide wars. Never have and never will.
 
I am not defending anyone.. Just pointing out the blaring hypocrisy of Americans attitudes to terrorism. You hate the Afghans but you won't hate yourself for the decades of supporting terrorist.

Terrorism is another word for Guerrilla warfare. Its tactic in which is useful when outnumbered or highly out powered. So much so we train our best of our best in this ability. Then we send our best of our best to foreign countries to train others be it NGOs or States. Fact of the matter is Americans love terrorism, they are just too stupid to realize it. You love the United States? Well, it's around because it used Guerrilla warfare/terror tactics against the British. You love Israel? Well.. google the King David Hotel bombing or Deir Yassin massacre. The group responsible became the Likud party.

So, let's carpet bomb the US, Israel with everyone else.. as we support ourselves and each other.
There is a big difference between guerrilla warfare where they target the military and terrorism where they target civilians. It's the target that is important not the collateral damage.
 
By that logic, I take it you would also justify Japan attacking Pearl Harbor. The, 'It's all Amerca's fault', meme lost it's luster a long time ago. It's absolitely disgusting to insist that America is to blame for 3,000 Americans being murdered. It's a display of the ignorance of history and the Islamofacist agenda.

We committed the first act of war with Japan. Whether or not they were justified in attacking us at Pearl Harbour was a decision to be made in Tokyo. As to why men from the Middle East are inclined to reach out at western targets with violence has been addressed and answered by many. Men like Jonathan Turley, Noam Chomsky, Ron Paul and far many more. The problem is that it makes people feel better about themselves if they believe that we are the righteous guys, going about our lives and minding our business and mean bad people reached out and punched us in the nose for no reason at all. Or the Bush classic, they hate us for our values. I know you can't hear it but I'm LMAO.
 
So. How many of those did our entire society have to revolve around war? In this last and most recent conflict...did the average citizen sacrifice anything? Did we have war on our doorstep? No.

You can say we are aggressive and imperial (a joke if you consider any historical context). But you can't claim we are a society of war. Our society hasn't faced war at home since WW2. And that was limited to outlying regions and fear of submarine attack. Prior to that it would have been the civil war.

Don't disservice the plight of the Afghan people by comparing their civilization of perpetual war since before the British...to that of an obese democracy that goes to other places to fight their wars.

So how many peacetime years did you see in that list. Or did you choose not to go to the link and look. Because you will find that there have been very few. And, with the exception of a couple of examples, the reason you and I can go about our lives with little sacrifice is because we usually wage war against much weaker nations that can be conquered with one hand tied behind our backs. But it hasn't prevented the macho pro-war crowd from crowing aloud in victory. As though there would be something for the 200 pound senior to brag about when he beat up the third grader.
 
Back
Top Bottom